TLI Civics

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TLI Civics

Postby Aramis on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:36 pm

What is a good general population number in this setting? Honestly, I usually default to D&D for my population numbers* in my Chapbook thread (http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=12125), but I'm thinking it might be different here in this setting.

*D&D Population statistics
Thorp 20 people or less
Hamlet 21-60
Village 61-200
Small Town 201-2,000
Large Town 2,001-5,000
Small City 5,001-10,000
Large City 10,001-25,000
Metropolis 25,001+


What is the value of a mehrial and how common is it? What is the average pay for a faceless worker on a normal business day? IE a blacksmith, Fugly, GS worker, etc. I mean, I'm wondering about NPCs, which really probably isn't overly relevant, but I'm just wondering about this, for potential future reference. Does an NPC layman average 1 copper a day, 5 coppers a day, 1 mhl, 10 mhls, etc?

Is Nanthalion notably powerful and versatile in its population? It's got a large number of warlords, pyromancers, heirophants, etc. And some of them are powerful enough to usually win against an army of low level characters. Is that average for most cities, or is Nanthalion unique?

In order to sustain its population, Nanthalion has to have a large number of farmers and ranchers, or else import food. So, taking into account these npcs, and the player base, what is a good (rough) population number for Nanthalion? Is it a small town, large city, metropolis, etc?

I'm just trying to get rough ideas for all of this, but it's something that I've been wondering about, so I thought I'd toss this up here and get everyone else's ideas on this... more as a collection of thoughts than anything exact.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby L`aquera on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:25 pm

Aramis wrote:What is a good general population number in this setting? Honestly, I usually default to D&D for my population numbers* in my Chapbook thread (http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=12125), but I'm thinking it might be different here in this setting.

*D&D Population statistics
Thorp 20 people or less
Hamlet 21-60
Village 61-200
Small Town 201-2,000
Large Town 2,001-5,000
Small City 5,001-10,000
Large City 10,001-25,000
Metropolis 25,001+


Probably far wiser then I would have said, generally speaking. If we go by players? There are over 800 char. made, that doesn't really include the NPC guards, shop workers, peasants, pig farmers and general farmers that run the lands to the mines and so forth, so probably, closer to a large City but SB might think differently.

What is the value of a mehrial and how common is it? What is the average pay for a faceless worker on a normal business day? IE a blacksmith, Fugly, GS worker, etc. I mean, I'm wondering about NPCs, which really probably isn't overly relevant, but I'm just wondering about this, for potential future reference. Does an NPC layman average 1 copper a day, 5 coppers a day, 1 mhl, 10 mhls, etc?


1 meherial always to me, was seen as a pound or a dollar, American wise.

Is Nanthalion notably powerful and versatile in its population? It's got a large number of warlords, pyromancers, heirophants, etc. And some of them are powerful enough to usually win against an army of low level characters. Is that average for most cities, or is Nanthalion unique?


Yes. :D

In order to sustain its population, Nanthalion has to have a large number of farmers and ranchers, or else import food. So, taking into account these npcs, and the player base, what is a good (rough) population number for Nanthalion? Is it a small town, large city, metropolis, etc?


See above

I'm just trying to get rough ideas for all of this, but it's something that I've been wondering about, so I thought I'd toss this up here and get everyone else's ideas on this... more as a collection of thoughts than anything exact.


Actually, I rather enjoyed the question, makes one think of the things we might take for granted.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Stormbringer on Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:55 pm

I think you need to consider Nanthalion as being a market town rather than a modern city. Modern cities have a high population density who mainly work in factories or the service sector all located within a small area. A market town may have a fairly small number of residents but it serves a wide rural population. This can be seen by the maps.

So when considering the numbers you have to take not only those who live within the town but also those in its catchment area who depend on it.

Also the D&D base figures are way off when you contrast them to modern life, which adds a layer of confusion. Today a large town or small city would probably hold anything from a quarter million people upwards, for example.

In simple terms however, and assuming the D&D figures represent a more medieval view of what comprises a city, Nanthalion would probably have a local population of a large town but when the surrounding area is taken into account it would equate with a large city or even a metropolis.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Aramis on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:41 pm

Honestly, SB, that's about what I figured. It's like the city limits of a metropolis, vs the greater metropolitan area. I don't figure we count all the farmers and servants, who would live on the outskirts, in the base population, but would count them in the greater area. And yeah, I'm sure those numbers are meant to represent a more medieval bent, not a modern one, though I hadn't really thought of it until now.

And L`, I love how you answered "yes" to an either/or question. :p But it's nice to see my own thoughts weren't too far off the mark.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Stormbringer on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:30 pm

If you think about it, it isn't just farmers and servants who live outside the town, most homes are outside too, along with the major homes of nobles.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ielenia on Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:10 am

as a D&D player of long standing...popluation figures include the surrounding support for the town itself. If I remember right it's 20 miles around the city is considered immediate support for the town.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ishtori on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:30 pm

Concerning this matters of intellectual curiosity, what would be the size of the land owned/overseen by a noble and how big or small drop of water would that be compared to the size of them empire?
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Stormbringer on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:57 pm

In feudal terms it would tend to vary with the status of a noble who might own a single fiefdom or several. I think the easiest approximation is to think in terms of the size of a county and assume that NPC nobles also exist so the entire empire is covered by one or another of them.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ishtori on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:09 pm

I think I see your point though I always imagined that not all land was owned by nobles. In feudal terms, lands were owned by nobles and the populace would habit there, make their homes and tend to the fields and paid tribute to the noble. However in TLI players actually purchase the land, making it their own (at least until the player leaves or the characters dies). How would that relate in equal terms then?
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby L`aquera on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:16 pm

Well... Since you can own your own land, think of it as, if a Noble, or Nobles, split up the lands, then each 'pc' that settled to said lands, would have to pay a tithe every year. :D
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ishtori on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:24 pm

I see. I actually thought that you'd actually own the land completly though it's not the case then. More of a case of you pay to be able to do whatever you want for those lands then.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Vladimir on Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:35 am

As to the question of the value of Mehrial/copper and how they apply to NPC's, I've had Kain speak of some of his lowest paid 'peasantry' workers at the Boatwerks as receiving 20 copper for a 12 hour day's work, and he's described the sum as 'disguised slavery'. So, if given 5 shifts, a low-skill peasant (working at the boatwerks, at least) would make about a Mehrial a week. Given the cost of quality room and board for a full month at the inn is 10 mhl, that seems a reasonably average wage for the very poorest castes, survival more than possible but any real comfort near unattainable.
So far as I understand Mehrial, the material of which its made is unique, and it comes with no 'gold standard' or other concretely assigned worth. Mehrial are basically just 'imperial credit', and are worth what the emperor says they're worth... which works out fine so long as his empire remains the dominant cultural force. If you were to sail across the world with a trunk of Mehrial and tried to trade them abroad to peoples who don't know the empire and aren't interested in visiting it, they'd have no worth beyond their being shiny, I believe.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ishtori on Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:19 am

I might be wrong about this, but I do belive I read it somewhere that mhl is the currency of the world, not the empire itself and so acceptable everywhere.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Stormbringer on Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:17 pm

I guess the terms 'buy' and 'mortgage' are rather misleading in a feudal economy but they're convenient.

Think of it in terms of the empire owns everything and appoints nobles to take responsibility for various bits of it. They are expected to send some of their profits to support the empire and in return get the usual right to ride roughshod over the peasants. Droit de seigneur is a rather underplayed aspect in my opinion ;)

To keep it simple the homeowners pay up front to 'own' a piece of that land instead of having to pay an annual fee. They do buy and own any improvements made, which is why those things are deleted when land is reclaimed. The departing peasant can't take his house with him so he wrecks it. Or neighboring land holders swoop in and cart away the materials to fix their leaky barn.

If peasants were considered to actually own their land then nobles would also own theirs, which would make the empire a lot harder to manage. It works better (at least if you happen to be an emperor) if the nobles know they can be kicked out and replaced should they start acting up. Naturally this doesn't inhibit them from trying to gain more influence or from attempting to 'redefine' the boundary between their own fiefdom and that of another noble. Plots and skirmishes keep them from growing too fat and lazy and are considered useful training for their troops so long as they keep them low key and don't bleed the empire dry.

Again for simplicity mehrials are taken to be recognised worldwide. Though like the ubiquitous dollar, they could have a variable value in what you can actually buy with them depending where you are. Also other kingdoms may have local currency and require the use of a bureau de change as a way to skim money off visitors.
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Re: TLI Civics

Postby Ishtori on Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:19 pm

So in much simpler terms, you don't actually own the land, you just pay a very high value (when compared to what a peasent should gain monthly and able to pay for a home) to beable to have a plot of land where you can build and live. The large sum for the plot is a way not to have to pay an annual tax as we are to assume no one would prefer a tax every year (which would in time suck and of course, makes things much more simple).
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