Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Questions and suggestions about the rules of the roleplay and how things work

Moderators: L`aquera, Stormbringer, Ehlanna, lyllamarie

Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Zaira on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:57 pm

I know there has been some interested expressed by players wanting to play pirate characters, and I am uncertain on the Empire's stance on pirates and how that relates to the Imperial Guard (specifically the Navy). There's a gray area here that I hope to get cleared up - and have those who have an interest in being pirate or navy voice what they would like to see, and what fits in context with the setting.

I think the first step is to make a distinction between those raiding within the Empire's waters, and those not. Since the Imperial Guard has a tradition of protecting the Empire's property and caring little of others; I do not think there would be issue with those raiding outside of the Empire's waters, and not targeting Imperial merchant vessels. I could even see these pirates being used as privateers - conducting raids for the empire without any link to the empire; and having them fall underneath the domain of the navy.

Those working within the Imperial waters are where the gray area crops up - mostly in regards to property. If a privately owned ship, is carrying cargo to sell in another port is that cargo considered private property, or imperial property? If a ship and it's crew are caught raiding Imperial ships, what is the punishment? Will they still be able to dock at Thalis port?

I can see going either way in terms of merchant vessels - claiming them as private property, or claiming the cargo as Imperial property. Maybe there is a distinction there that can be used 'registered merchant' ships (who carry Imperial cargo, and fall underneath the protection of the Navy, with a cut of profits of trade going to taxes, and need to register their cargo with the Navy before leaving port). And 'unregistered merchant' ships, which are open game for the pirates but need not waste time with Navy paperwork.

My idea is to break the ships into four groups really;
Privateers - Privately owned ships that are trained by the navy and conduct covert raiding for the Empire on other lands and leave Imperial ships alone.
Pirates - Privately owned ships that raid any ship they come across, criminals in the Empire's land.
Registered Merchants - Captain, ships and cargo registered with the Empire and under the protection of the Navy, expected to give a share of their profit in taxes.
Unregistered Merchants - Captain, ship and cargo are moved 'off the books' and considered entirely private property.

Ideas?
Image
User avatar
Zaira
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:54 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby miyuka on Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:52 pm

I've nothing to add to this but I must say I do like the sound of it.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Ishtori on Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 pm

The idea is quite good, though I don't see privateers as being actually trained by the navy but more as pirates who don't go against the empire's forces so as not to call a shit storm on them and be easly allowed in any port without much care. They may also work in covert ops for the empire but that is paid work... Just a sugestion though. I don't think most privateers will want a direct afilliation to the navy itself.

Still I was thinking of something along the lines of what you said Zaira so I completly agree with you on the accessment of the situation with a small different view on the privateers (corsairs).
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Ishtori
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Stormbringer on Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:03 pm

Privateers are really pirates who are temporarily working for the right people. Think of them most like mercenaries who get signed up to do a job. That would make them freelancers in terms of the roleplay. All varieties of pirate are expected to have their own base to work from. They may try to sneak into Thallis for repairs but it wouldn't be easy for a non-empire warship to pass as anything harmless.

The REB has opened up the coast to people buying seaside property. So an ocean-going pirate will need such a land plot as a base to work from, and also a boat dock. A boathouse is strongly recommended to hide the ship and for roleplay terms the REB will let this be described as a 'hidden cove' or 'secret cave' rather than a simple structure. A river pirate will need river frontage to their plot along with a boat dock and preferably a boathouse too, to hide the ship.

Pirates, when not working for the empire as privateers, would be considered a nuisance since they interfere with trade which benefits the empire. So I would imagine the IGNavy would tend to hunt them indiscriminately regardless of the cargo carried by merchants. Of course they wouldn't usually turn up during an actual attack but I think this will make for the maximum roleplay fun without getting too complicated.
Image
--------------
Charm’d magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn

(John Keats)
Check your baggage at the door and bring some magic through your
window onto the world of Belariath
User avatar
Stormbringer
High Council
High Council
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:02 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Ishtori on Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:20 pm

I kinda imagined the privateers a bit like corsairs. They help the home country every now and then, purposefully work in the enemy's water so as to disrupt the trade of the enemies though they do take a few targets of opportunity that are not of their home country and in return for the their services they are left alone by their own country navy.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Ishtori
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Miss Magical on Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:23 pm

I think you're misunderstanding the point of Privateers, Ishtori (Corsairs and Privateers are the same thing, the former just being a french term for the same concept), which is to be another force in a war-time situation or another contributor towards starting a war. As SB said, Privateers hurt trade that takes place within the Empire and hurts the reputation of the Empire abroad if they allow the Pirating to take place. The formation is quite simple: if the Empire cannot protect ships going to their ports, ships will not go to their ports.

Now, I'm quite sure that a "Sorta Privateer" could be created by posing as a ship that, within the Empire, was a Merchant ship but once it go out on the High Seas further from the IGNavy it turned into something more along the lines of a pirate. Attacking only non-Empire ships could help in that regards, too, though then mistakes would undoubtedly be made. The Pirates could only target ships not displaying the flag of the Empire, but merchant ships often changed their flag to show who they wanted to be "protected" by in a given situation. Because of Magic and Watermages and things of that nature, killing all the members of a crew is much, much more difficult in TLI than it is in real life, and if any of the crew of an Empire's vessel returns to the mainland to say "Hey, the Scooty Booty destroyed our ship," it's an easy thing to go and find the Captain next time they put into port and cast Truth Speak on them to get them to talk.

Until the Empire goes to war with a maritime nation, I would not imagine that Pirates would be anything the IG wants to deal with. They do nothing to help a nation even in times of war outside of simply disrupting the trade of other countries, and take valuable mehrial and manpower to hunt down and destroy. If you want to be the type to raid other ships on the high seas, either join the Navy or expect to be an "outlaw."
Never robust as a melody, only a broken chord to sing.
User avatar
Miss Magical
Adept
Adept
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Lloathe on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:26 am

First off, I imagine Pirates would not have much in the way of actual military-grade hardware or mages. At least not NPC's. Siege weapons might damage or sink a ship, and thats a bad thing when you wanna steal the ship and everything on board (including the crew!).
I imagine most Piracy would be at bow/crossbow range and involve boarding, given the time period.

This allows one to identify a ship's markings and style, possibly even its actual crest before hitting it with weaponry. (What? Its the Scooty Booty? Thats an Imperial Ship! Raise the friendly flags!)
Now, this would still involve a long and involved chase, fear and tension on the part of the hunted merchant vessel, and likely some ill-feelings. Privateers were not always the most popular people. Furthermore, many governments would overlook an occasional 'accidental' raiding on the part of Privateers...if they were useful and wanted. Still, being a Privateer is a dangerous thing, as you are a criminal for your country...in another country's territory. As soon as relations with your one-time enemies warms, you become a liability...and an expendable one. Good luck getting back into your country!
Even worse, you have to get the backing of your government in some way, otherwise you are a lone nut (aka Pirate). With backing, you are an authorized lone nut (aka Privateer), and thus not likely to be shot at on sight...until you are no longer useful. Either way, Privateering is tough, risky, and tends to have a pretty crappy retirement package.
And, re-reading what Miss Magical said...yeah, she is spot on. I missed her first paragraph.

Edited for expansion of ideas and spelling.
User avatar
Lloathe
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:00 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Ishtori on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:15 am

There are some good points yes, I'd say that the empire could always be assumed to be at war with someone and thus there would always be prey for privateers in the waters. Still this wouldn't exactly be true. The empire has wars but they are not that often and not that long. Still I'd like to point out that treating privateers like pirates and chasing them down even when they don't sink imperial ships will just be the same as being a pirate and thus there is no real gain in being one.

For simplicity sake it would be safe enough to assume there would always be Pirates in imperial waters and while such exists it would be pointless to hunt down a privateer which doesn't directly hurts the empire (only indirectly because of the trade disruption) rather than hunting down pirates which will attack any ship they come across.

Course i'm only putting that up if there is an opening for the privateer buisness to come into play, if it's not something desired then of course it's pointless to argue on this matter.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Ishtori
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Miss Magical on Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:42 pm

Lloathe wrote:First off, I imagine Pirates would not have much in the way of actual military-grade hardware or mages. At least not NPC's. Siege weapons might damage or sink a ship, and thats a bad thing when you wanna steal the ship and everything on board (including the crew!).
I imagine most Piracy would be at bow/crossbow range and involve boarding, given the time period.


The prime want for a Pirate is to cripple a ship, not destroy it, and we can't act like these Galleons are flimsy little things. Often, Pirates are those who were part of a Navy and then decided to mutiny, taking the ship with them, or they were rich upper-class citizens looking for a crazy-fucking-time. To discount equipment based on goal is folly, really, and one that could be punishable by a Pirate ship bristling with more guns and mages as the IG. The lure of Piracy is the same lure as the frontier, though with less of a family-friendly appeal: you get to loot rich ships, make off with the women, and in the end lead a successful life far from the trappings and expectations of civilized society.

Now, as for the Siege weapons themselves, again I disagree. Ballistae, in particular, would be a majorly common appearance on the decks of ships; so too would be mages, and not just water mages. Air Mages would be invaluable on the High Seas as well, and the latter would have a key ability the former would not: the ability to throw fire around. When attempting to seize another ship, you need to fulfill one of three criteria: 1) to be faster than them in the long term, which Pirates often are, and opens on the "Open Seas" would almost need to be; 2) to be able to cut a ship off by stepping into the current and wind stream and waiting (let's remember that ships are still mostly directed around with sails, and oars when it's either not there or needed. A slave crew for pirates means their oar-crews are probably going to be quicker than that of a merchant vessel, and if the Pirate is able to hide in a hidden bay until a merchant gets near and then jump out into the trade winds, well that's a problem); or 3) be able to close quick enough and then damage the Sails or Rudder of the enemy ship. Neither the Sails or Rudder are vital ingredients to a ship staying afloat, and neither either are small targets. Ballistae would be able to puncture sails with good accuracy at long distance, and really would have very little risk of punching through a ship's hull if the proper bolt was being used. Air Mages would be able to send both streams of air to slash the sails and bolts of fire to do the same thing, and heavy damage to a rudder will disable a ship sure as shootin' as well. Again, these aren't frail little pond-jumpers, these are ships capable of taking on the dangers of the Ocean and nearly always winning.

Lloathe wrote:This allows one to identify a ship's markings and style, possibly even its actual crest before hitting it with weaponry. (What? Its the Scooty Booty? Thats an Imperial Ship! Raise the friendly flags!)
Now, this would still involve a long and involved chase, fear and tension on the part of the hunted merchant vessel, and likely some ill-feelings. Privateers were not always the most popular people. Furthermore, many governments would overlook an occasional 'accidental' raiding on the part of Privateers...if they were useful and wanted. Still, being a Privateer is a dangerous thing, as you are a criminal for your country...in another country's territory. As soon as relations with your one-time enemies warms, you become a liability...and an expendable one. Good luck getting back into your country!


Merchant ships fall under two categories: those who do actually fly under one government and will proudly boast who they are in any foriegn port, and those that just want people to think they fly under one government -- namely, the one that will help them out in that situation. It is not a difficult thing to swap out your flags on a ship, and therein lies the problem for your scenario: if the merchant ship only raises the Imperial flag when a pirate or privateer is spotted ... the Captain isn't going to believe them, and if they do then they are fools 10-ways to Sunday. It's important to remember that whether you be Pirate or Privateer, chances are you are a Greedy Bastard only interested in "helping your Empire" inasmuch as it lines your chest with gold and puts sexy whores in your cabin. Nobody has a number of how many Privateers immediately turned to Piracy when asked to stop, but I'm sure the number is many, many, many. It's a lifestyle, it isn't a "Where do I sign up I need to bring some food home to the Missess in two months time so we can all celebrate Christmas together warmly and by hokey guv'na I really hope I kin serve my country!" job. Patriotism only lasts so long when you're out on the open seas robbing non-combatants of their livelihood a thousand miles from Nanthalion.
Never robust as a melody, only a broken chord to sing.
User avatar
Miss Magical
Adept
Adept
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Miss Magical on Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:03 pm

Ishtori wrote:For simplicity sake it would be safe enough to assume there would always be Pirates in imperial waters and while such exists it would be pointless to hunt down a privateer which doesn't directly hurts the empire (only indirectly because of the trade disruption) rather than hunting down pirates which will attack any ship they come across.


Trade. Is. Everything. Everything, and we have to remember that the rulers of other countries aren't dumb, mute, deaf NPC's that only exist when we want them to.

If a nation's ships are being attacked in Such-And-Such waters, then one of two things will happen: 1) the Country will send in warships to address the problem, or 2) the ships will stop coming. Either way it reflects poorly on the Empire not just for that country but for all countries. Their ships will be turned away and where they are not they will find stiffer prices than they otherwise would. It is a country's job to protect the merchants traveling through their waters (by the way, if you're thinking of having a concept of "International Waters!" anywhere a Pirate would roam then you need to blow that concept out of your head right now. Trade Lanes are power, and that means somebody is going to claim them) and if they are unable to do that then there will be major consequences.

Look, I understand that Privateers or Corsairs (I'm a fan of the second word, to be honest) is a cool concept, and it's a wet dream to be able to attack merchant ships with little fear of retribution, but at the least let's keep them to when the Empire fights maritime types. It's much more fun to keep it realistic there, and I think if you played it out right Piracy could be immensely profitable. I'd love to do it, but I've got only so many alts available under the sun, so it might not be doable.

There's also the notion that there could be corruption in a system. Want to be a pirate, but want to minimize your risks? See if you can't find a shady noble to hire you with the promise that you'll funnel credits back their way. Maybe there's an Imperial Guard person who doesn't mind looking another direction for that 100mhl/month check... I'm against any "normal" definition of Privateer because it sounds to me like it's more just an effort to make a situation with all of the benefits and few of the risks, and that's just dull. Do that through role-playing, and .. you know what? If you're a criminal you're going to have bad days. Shop stealing attracts thieves who might get caught, why shouldn't piracy attract some of the same characters? This is just on a grand scale.
Never robust as a melody, only a broken chord to sing.
User avatar
Miss Magical
Adept
Adept
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Stormbringer on Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:07 pm

All good points that help define the motivations and background of those who want to become pirates.

For simplicity I think I would take a view that all pirates are pirates. A pirate who obtains a freelance job from the empire via the Fleet Commander is considered a privateer for the duration of that job, and wouldn't be a target of the navy whilst it was ongoing. The rest of the time, they're pirates and take their chances.
Image
--------------
Charm’d magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn

(John Keats)
Check your baggage at the door and bring some magic through your
window onto the world of Belariath
User avatar
Stormbringer
High Council
High Council
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:02 pm

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Ishtori on Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:52 pm

Yes they are all good points but there are severe limitations to pirates, especially when we consider the number of weapons on a ship... For example, merchant ships can have 2 ballistas, 3 for pirates and 5 for imperial ships. Now if we look at things how they were, in most cases pirates had a lot of guns on their ships, much more than normal navy ships of any country. Queen Anne's Revenge (Black Beard's flagship) was a merchant class vessel, captured by the french and refited for slave trading and then recaptured by the english latter to become Black Beards ship. Now when he got his hands on that ship he refited and mounted it with so many guns that it had more guns than a man-o-war class vessel. Only the ships of the line which were intruduce in the latter years of piracy had a comparable number of guns or more than Queen Anne's Revenge... Also it's safe to assume that pirate ships had more crew than any normal navy ship cause pirates needed numbers to board ships and there was always casualties if th prey was foolish enough to fight back even though most merchant ships simply surrendered and hoped to get out of it alive.

Normally Pirates didn't fought any countries navy for the simple fact that they were in a fleet and the pirate, even if they had 2 or 3 ships were generally on their own, they would be sunk by the combined fire power of the navy though 1 on 1 they would likelly stand a much better chance since their guns usually outnumbered the enemy and their crew usually not only was far larger (except if they were hunting for a specific pirate) , but also they had better training. While the navy had some combat training, it was just training, pirates were out in the sea puting their lifes on the line in every fight they got so their training comes from actually experience which we could say that in a way, most of them will be like veterans in fighting at the open seas.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Ishtori
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Lloathe on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:52 pm

Ishtori wrote:Yes they are all good points but there are severe limitations to pirates, especially when we consider the number of weapons on a ship... For example, merchant ships can have 2 ballistas, 3 for pirates and 5 for imperial ships. Now if we look at things how they were, in most cases pirates had a lot of guns on their ships, much more than normal navy ships of any country. Queen Anne's Revenge (Black Beard's flagship) was a merchant class vessel, captured by the french and refited for slave trading and then recaptured by the english latter to become Black Beards ship. Now when he got his hands on that ship he refited and mounted it with so many guns that it had more guns than a man-o-war class vessel. Only the ships of the line which were intruduce in the latter years of piracy had a comparable number of guns or more than Queen Anne's Revenge... Also it's safe to assume that pirate ships had more crew than any normal navy ship cause pirates needed numbers to board ships and there was always casualties if th prey was foolish enough to fight back even though most merchant ships simply surrendered and hoped to get out of it alive.


Ishtori.
First of all, this is not the real world, and certainly not a colonial time period. Furthermore, Black Beard was not a typical pirate. He was the pirate every other pirate generally wanted to be. Or was until he was taken out by a wily British Captain.
Second of all, Siege engineers are not common, and ballistae take up more space than cannon.
Catapults and trebuchet would be very hard to put on boats out of sheer physics, and would be counter-productive to taking things intact (thats a mean arc of fire they have!).

Ishtori wrote:Normally Pirates didn't fought any countries navy for the simple fact that they were in a fleet and the pirate, even if they had 2 or 3 ships were generally on their own, they would be sunk by the combined fire power of the navy though 1 on 1 they would likelly stand a much better chance since their guns usually outnumbered the enemy and their crew usually not only was far larger (except if they were hunting for a specific pirate) , but also they had better training. While the navy had some combat training, it was just training, pirates were out in the sea puting their lifes on the line in every fight they got so their training comes from actually experience which we could say that in a way, most of them will be like veterans in fighting at the open seas.

No, actually, Pirates were generally poorly trained, and had terrible discipline. Most pirates never really fought. The single greatest killer amongst pirates was disease. The majority of what a pirate would do is intimidate and chase down. The few times there were battles, generally the Pirates ran. Even 1-on-1. In real life. Furthermore, a military ship, run by actual Navies had sailors with specialized and expert gunners, as well as a compliment of Marines. Pirates had pirates. They might have a good gunner, or they might not.

Your logic, however contains a flaw. The logic is that a criminal group would be better at fighting than a military, because the military just trains while a criminal group fights actual battles. I would submit that even a peacetime military would be better against a criminal group, simply due to discipline and drilling. They can work as a team, and they do. They can fire accurately, and they do. The criminal is not standard, may not even be running with the same crew from one expedition to the next. They have no discipline. They do not wish to take risks.
User avatar
Lloathe
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:00 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Ishtori on Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:23 pm

Yes this is not the real word but there were a few critits going on with what would have been so I went along with that as well.

Also yes, a balista takes more space than a cannon, but if pirates could enginner a boat to take more cannons than normally they would take, I'm pretty sure that pirates in the game could also engineer the boat to take more ballistas than they normally take.

Pirates weren't exactly trained, like I said, they learned in actual combat and though crew tended to change on every trip more than once over 2 thirds of the crew was the same as they usually spent all money on booze and whores and had to go back to the sea to earn more money (if can call it earning anyway). Pirates ran against larger numbers and against navies even 1 on 1 they'd run because there was simply no profit to be had from pillaging a navy vessel. But on a 1 on 1 fight they'd win the moment they managed to board the navy ship... Yes their gunenrs might not be so good but as soon as they got up close and personal you can bet that they had more fighting experience, that was what I meant by more experienced crew. Though yes, they are not much for discipline.
"The heavens burned
The stars cried out
And under the ashes of infinity
Hope, scarred and bleeding breathed it's last."
Ishtori
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:51 am

Re: Empire, Pirates and Privateers

Postby Zaira on Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:00 am

Before things break down into Pirates: Pros vs Cons...
Stormbringer wrote:For simplicity I think I would take a view that all pirates are pirates. A pirate who obtains a freelance job from the empire via the Fleet Commander is considered a privateer for the duration of that job, and wouldn't be a target of the navy whilst it was ongoing. The rest of the time, they're pirates and take their chances.


This seems to be the consensus from those that have put their voices in (along with using Corsair instead of privateer), and consider it settled at that. Time to think up some Corsair quest ideas :D
User avatar
Zaira
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:54 pm

Next

Return to Rules and Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


cron