Slaves and combat

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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Miss Magical on Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:40 pm

gwyneth{StWi} wrote:Granted, i can see the point of the objections, but really it depends on the slave, and should, in a girl's opinion, be up to the owner's discretion whether or not to arm a slave


This I agree with, to an extent. It seems to me like something the ISA could offer is permission to legally carry a "weapon" (a dagger is not a weapon, really; their effectiveness in combat is often over-exaggerated as a dagger holds virtually no advantage over, say, a shortsword) if their owner paid a fee of, oh, 50 mhl and vouched on their behalf, or if the owner was a high enough member of society, a captain of the IG, perhaps, or a noble, or some such. Someone to blame if the grant was made in eventual error.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby One on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:23 pm

wow, there is a ton to respond to in this thread.

i'd like to say first that i was really excited to see this topic come around for discussion. i have only played submissive characters up until recently .. at the same time that Winn's world view began to change, and when she took Rylie to be her own, my first thoughts were things i'm surprised to see in a failing light here .. Rylie, as an individual, was taken on with the very idea that he should be put into a gladiator setting. that he should be truly submissive to one, that he should wield weapons in a controlled setting, and be trained with strength and honor .. not weakness.

i understood at the time that the climate wasn't right for that concept, but because the player and i were still feeling pleased with it, have continued 'training' him with the hope that maybe an idea like Kydo's would come around the pike. i don't want lions in with Winn's slave, i would want want her well-trained and valuable property to be able to wear plate and carry a broadsword into an arena with a token of his mistress tucked into his tunic. slaves wandering about in public with broadswords with the intent to use them .. i agree with Tawny, i think maybe that'd be over the top.

i'd like to say that the idea of a 'slave rebellion' is interesting if only because it would COMPLETELY defeat the purpose of this channel in general. i just don't see that ever happening. c'mon now, whomever started that would be immediately shut down by those slaves who -chose- to be obedient and loyal .. like Rylie. rebellion is an unrealistic reason -not- to have fighting slaves.

i can see fighting slaves being housed at the arena during some kind of 'arena season.' that is, part time. preferably not. maybe a compromise, a fighting slave could leave his/her armor, his weapons at the arena. perhaps to be used only there, and only for supervised matches, perhaps only in the presence of his mistress or an Arena individual(s) approved for such observation.

What if we have an OOC contract that states simplistically that if the Slave gets out of hand 'outside' an arena battle, the Master/Mistress are held accountable. The slaves collar is removed and cannot be collared again except to an establishment. The Master / Mistress is fined a sum that goes with their income for a month or more. And then the slave character must face the consequences of his/her actions against an aggressive free person of the Arenas choosing.


.. said L. in combination with gladitorial or fighting slaves, this seems reasonable. IClie, as always, masters and mistresses are absolutely accountable for their slave's behavior. i would expect no quarter for Winn if Rylie should walk out of the arena and start to hack and slash at the general populace.

i would love to have a slave tournament. i think it would be fun, i think it would be a great experiment to see whether or not we can do something like this on a more permanent basis. slaves may be objects, may be akin to furniture, may take up equip slots .. but even an object can attain glory? there once was a famous sword, pulled from a stone ..
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:36 pm

I'd have to disagree with you there Medoly. It doesn't makes sence to pay for a slave to be able to use weapons/armor when one could simply have magic for the same effect.

Also just because a slave walks around with armor and a weapon it doesn't means the slave will attack someone. The same goes for the fact that a slave which walks around naked it doesn't means that the slave can't attack a person. I belive this to be the reason why the ISA doesn't restricts the possibility of the slaves to carry such items.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Tawny on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:22 pm

I dont have much time so i will go into greater detail tomorrow but... Is not gladitorial or fighting slaves marching into the heading of blood sport. I was always told that is one place this game was not meant to head. I have seen rp disrupted and players get into trouble because they were rping a torture scene...reasoning... it was torture for the pleasure of causing pain. Now maybe I am seeing things wrong but to put slaves in a pit to fight and or kill another slave is causing pain and death for the simple pleasure of causing pain and death. That is why that was done in the roman times. I have already seen in this thread where this kind of rp is headed. Just read... pit slaves against lions, I saw mention of jhore and slaves. Give an inch people take a mile fits. RP is not suppost to cross a certain line with blood and gore and other such things yet that is exactly what gladitorial fighting is. IMO this will not only lead to headaches as far as slavery in the game but it will lead to bigger issues of RP and the rules that govern it.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:39 pm

There are limits for everything Tawny. No one here is promoting fights to the death in it's full gory splendour. Far from it. What is being asked is that slaves are allowed to fight (by fight read spar) in the arena. Sure there was a few exagerated examples which would no doubt be discarded by the HC but the main thing is. Allowing them to fight in the arena.

If you think that spars fall into the bloodspor category, well there's been tournaments for a long time and well, if bloodsports aren't allowed to a limit then it would simply defy the purpose of the arena even existing. Everything in good moderation is what's being asked I belived.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:48 pm

gwyn has sparred in the arena, usually with wooden blades, but occasionally with steel, depending who she was sparring with and what the rules were set down ahead of time. She sees it this way, she won't do any damage in a sparr that she can't fix herself as a healer. Unless she is too injured to heal herself she sticks to that rule. Sparr's aren't meant to be deadly or even necessarily bloody. It's a game, it's practice, it's not attacking, it's not an offence if both members have agreed to it. she views sparring in much the same philosophical light as she views buying someone in a SFAD auction. It's a game, agreed to by the Free person involved, it's play. When gwyneth bought Meershan He'd asked her previously to explain better what slavery was like; when she bought Him in SFAD, she showed Him, with His permission and encouragement. a sparr is much the same, a way for them to practice their skills, a way for her to practice her own so that when it's needed it's there and strong. Just another way to serve.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:19 pm

A spar is none the less a combat, a fight, whether or not to the death and will often result in injuries, to one or another extent and as such a slave is by ISA ruls forbiden to take part in it whether or not the other character (slave or not) agrees to it and whether or not the master agrees to it. I belive that is above all what people are trying to change here as well as adding a few gladiatorial things in the middle, course no deaths and such non-sence. Just as a form of spice and well, something they belive would fit some characters.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Tawny on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:28 pm

Ishtori, I dont know if its me or you but one of us is reading things wrong. I am going by such post as this one by Miss Magical
And I'll voice my approval of the concept of a gladiator-type slave who exists to fight, but I would mention that I think it'd be cool if a concept came about of a Coliseum-type thing: of prisoners who could be sold to the arena or to masters within the arena to pay off their debts (this would be practiced rarely, as gladiator slaves would seldom live long enough to repay whatever debts their owners decide they own and even then greedy bastards that slaveowners are they'd likely only free their slaves grudgingly.). I always imagine such being a staple of a society like Belariath has, where a slave might be forced to fight, say, a Jhore.
and again by Miss Magical
I always imagine such being a staple of a society like Belariath has, where a slave might be forced to fight, say, a Jhore.

It is things like this, that makes me feel very uncomfortable with doing this at all. As well as the worry that this would lead to body guard type slaves and come full circle to things dealt with and removed for the game already for various reasons.

Ok I have to leave for the night so take care everyone and be safe. I shall see everyone when I get home hopefully tomorrow evening.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:41 am

Well Tawny though you are reading correctly I don't think that such things would ever be approved by the HC exactly because they would be inappropriate for the setting but just because one of the sugestions in the middle of all that was thrown was inappropriate it doesn't means that the rest of it doesn't has it's merits... I can see your concerns on that matter of course but again, something like that wouldn't likelly go forth and if it did it would certainly be in a controlled envoirment, pretty much like quests when they bring giant scorpions ;)

Again it's all a question of moderation and good sence.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Joshua_Jericho on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:04 am

I'm a little divided on this. On the one hand, opening up more avenues of RP for slaves and slave characters, as well as encouraging the IC use of the Arena seems like a good thing. On the other, as noted, allowing slaves to parade themselves around in full armour and weaponry seems to be pushing the setting. Unless we -want- to go the route of an IC slave rebellion. Which could be fun, but, I think in the end, would cause more disruption than entertainment.

A potential work-around might be extremely severe limitations on -when- slaves can wield weapons. An example might be to decree that no slave may bear arms unless within a publicly recognised Arena, with his or her Owner on hand. The weaponry itself would be the property of the Owner - they'd have to carry it to and from the Arena, then hand it to the slave and recover it from them before leaving. One could also introduce stricter penalties for slaves carrying weaponry (aside from daggers, as Gwyn has pointed out in the past), possibly even including the right of any free citizen to drag an armed slave to the ISA for a criminal collar. Not to mention, instructing MMR and SS workers not to sell weapons, or enchant weapons for slaves. We could even require all slaves that wanted to bear arms (in the Arena) to have an untarnished record for at least, say.. six months of ownership, with no ISA punishments on their record.

As for the unsavoury nature of the gladiator concept, that's a fair point. I don't think anyone really wants to RP a slave being thrown to the lions. I see this inquest more because of the multitude of tournaments being held around the place, and various enslaved characters looking wistfully at them and wishing they could take part. Not because people want to play out blood sport and torture porn in an Arena setting. Obviously this could be enforced by only allowing slaves to bear arms in the Arena for "official" tournaments.

I -don't- think allowing slaves to carry weapons outside specific contexts is appropriate, though. They are, after all, slaves. The thing nagging at me, on a tangent, is that we discriminate against the physical classses there.

After all, there's no implicit IC or OOC rule preventing a Mage slave from wearing fully enchanted Robes of the Arch Magi, and knowing lots of 15 slot spells. Is this a gap that needs addressing?

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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:18 am

Ishtori: You should probably review the ISA's rules for slaves here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=11671

There is *no* rule stating that slaves cannot carry weapons nor that they cannot sparr. Tournament fighting has been disallowed, but that is not the same thing as a friendly sparr. Most that gwyn has met, and all she has sparred with do not consider that an attack. If gwyn's Master allows her to sparr, and she has willing participants in such, then it is allowed. Hell, gwyn's sparred *with* her Master and with other Chirot in the past, as well as with Miss Miyuka. gwyn would think that most people who sparr would see it as not an attack. a fight with a free person is different, a sparr is a sparr.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:35 am

Again I will say this. There is no rule from the ISA that prevents a slave from walking in body plate with a great sword in their back exactly for the same reson that if it existed it would be a senceless discrimination against physical classes as pointed already.

The only restrictions that a character may have towards gear as a slave are imposed by the master and the master alone. The ISA has no claim on it currently!


Gwyn it may just be my interpretation but there is the following:

4. A slave will not engage in acts of senseless violence. A slave will never provoke an attack, nor initiate one. However, the bond between Owner and slave is so deep that a slave would be likely to do anything for their Owner to save them. It is common that Owners do not permit their slaves to act in their defense, as they are the protectors rather than the slave, however should an Owner be unconscious and near death it is possible that a slave would attempt to save their owner by whatever means possible. However, there would be no seeking of revenge or retaliation afterwards.

From my reading this means under whatever circunstances and of course unless to defend themselfs or the owner in extreme cases they will simply not fight at all. Also there is this:

Minor offenses...including but not limited too..

Causing bodily injury to a free person by hitting kicking biting scratching.

The use of non Lethal weapons such as mugs, plates, whips on a free person.

The use of none lethal spells such as sleep, stun bolt, and other on a free person.

Being caught stealing or destroying others property.


Major Offenses...including but not limited too..

The use of Deadly weapons or spells against any free person or slave.

Any type of offense against the Emporer or Noble.

Any type of threat or action against the empire.

Murder, Kidnapping or rape of anyone.

Any of this will happen in a spar, whether with consent or not. Again this might just be my interpretation which someone from the HC could easly clear out that my interpretation is wrong and that with consent from the free person and consent from the master/mistress it would be allowed. But that's not the elaction I take from what I read.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:59 am

In what way is a wooden dagger used in sparring a 'deadly weapon'? Also, in what way is it deadly if gwyneth who's a relatively strong healer by anyone's account, heals any actual damage that *is* done? And if the free person asks for the sparr, then it isn't any form of attack, period. Some could even see it as a "command performance" depending who does the asking. Also, in most cases, gwyn grants the other person the initiative, then she isn't making the first attack :). Yes, tricky way around things but, still. But either way.. a slave will never provoke an attack or initiate one... a sparr isn't an attack. A sparr isn't intended to do real damage. It's practice or play, or foreplay in many cases. Never has it ever been questioned before, after or during a sparr as something gwyn shouldn't be doing, by *anyone*. And if a slave is supposed to act in defense of their Master's property, and in some cases defense of the Empire, then a slave has to learn *how* to fight. How do you propose a slave does that if they don't *practice* via sparring? How do they know if their defense is solid? if the enchantments they have are the ones they need? Obviously through sparring as anyone else.

Essentially, Sparring doesn't fall into the "senseless violence" category. It's necessary training for survival. Or do you expect slaves to run and hide every time there's an event or quest and not get involved? Do you expect healer slaves to not be threatened when they're pulling injured off the battle field during war or combat? i'm not advocating slaves go out and pick fights. But, they are allowed to defend themselves, they are allowed to help defend the Empire, and to do that they have to, logically know *how* to fight. And one learns how to fight in the sparring ring. Most people, free and slave, can tell the difference between *attacking* someone and practicing for danger later on.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Ishtori on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:37 am

That is your view of things Gywn and while I share that view of things, there are people who will not share that view and who will demand that a slave can do no harm of any kind, be that with or without letal weapons/magic.

For many people a spar is senceless violence. Senceless in the meaning that any kind of activity that will result in any kind of injury except if the slave is in mortal danger or such situations. The rules also cover for any kind of damage done with deadly weapons and without deadly weapons and any person can have it enforced because some people will basicly demand that a slave is no more than a fuck toy (which is wrong from my point of view).

You see, if it was specificly ruled out in the ISA rules that a slave is able to (with master/mistress permission) to spar in the arena and fight in quests/events then all of this wouldn't be here in the first place Gwyn. Just that many people don't see it allowed and will in many cases do whatever necessary to see that slaves will not fight ever and from what I read there is more than enough room to enforce that a slave will not fight except in the most urgent of situations... Also being a healer doesn't really matters in the case, whether or not a slave can heal after the spar the damage was still done. What is being asked is that the rules clearly include exceptions to a few extra kind of fights if they are indeed allowed or if not then to change it.
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Re: Slaves and combat

Postby Stormbringer on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:28 pm

I view slaves a little differently than probably most people will here. A slave from a slaver point of view is not a person, a slave is a thing and you do what you want with your things. You can fuck it, you can spoil it, you can break it and you can make it fight for you. Those are my personal views on slaves. They shouldn't even have "rights" to beggin with. They should have as much rights as a sword or as dildo wich is from the slavers point of view (or master) "I do what I want and when I want with you". I also don't see a reason for paying monthly for a slave. It is a slave, not my employee, it is why I paid in the first place to register it, to mark it as my slave and not pay anymore. Just the same way I can't think of a reason for a slave occupying 2 equiment slots for a character. I don't carry my slave in my pocket and it certainly doesn't use or confers me special abillities in a fight either. That's why I simply chose not to own slaves. The rules as they are make no sence to me at all.


It's a pity this thread has got disrupted by points that would have been better handled in a separate topic but I'll reply anyway.

1. You asume you are alone in thinking of a slave as a simple possession. You're wrong. No further discussion needed.

2. Armor is a possession that confers benefits and takes equipment slots. A slave is a possession that confers benefits and takes equipment slots. One makes sense the other is stupid. Nice logic there.

3. You don't pay for a slave to work for you. You pay for the slave's upkeep. The lack of logic in the game is actually that you don't pay for the upkeep of your horse or to replace worn out combat items.

4. Slavery has taken many forms over the centuries. The TLI one has more in common with Rome than Alabama. Neither is inherently right in present day terms. So we made a choice which would benefit the widest group of players.

5. You can treat a slave pretty much exactly how you want short of a few restrictions which are usually based in OOC restrictions on gameplay. So looking at other characters who treat their slaves with a light hand and assuming you have to copy them is... uninventive. And blaming the game for stopping you doing something which the game allows is disingenuous at best.
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