Creativity and Spirit

[Phaing]

I just answered a thread that made me think of something, a subject that has been a major topic in most of the PMs I have been getting lately.
Major, to someone who steps away for weeks or months at a time, and thus has the perspective to notice changes that might be too subtle for people who are here everyday to notice.

This goes beyond the argument about how this place has gone from 'Chocolate' to 'Vanilla'. I noticed that 6 months ago, and its become worse. People are complaining about the lack of creativity, really . Often, and when I suggest that they get with it and just get RPing with some flair... well, the restrictions kick in.
Something I am sadly familiar with.

I have been cornered by the ops for
1; mentioning Muay Thai, not in dialogue, but as a reference point for non-verbal descriptive posts. They msed it sound as if I was trying to introduce a foreign concept to a Union Shop.
2: for running a little mini-adventure on a dull night in a quiet channel, with a cheap little Witch in her Gingerbread house sort of thing for an hour. It was a spur-of-the moment sort of thing, and the op reacted as if I was smearing the Wicca.
3: Dreaming aloud about Dragons out loud .... but nevermind, better stop with this.

Yes, the rules are the rules.
I broke them and I did my time, years ago.
I modified my behavior and trudged on, and also started taking longer and longer vacations from Bel.
However, when I look around and see that out of 30+ people logged in, and less than half a dozen are engaged in RP as a matter of routine, that tells me we have a problem.
Lots of log-ins don't equal lots of Role playing.
When people tell me why this is happening, it makes me afraid that this house is dying. Slowly, but the cancer is spreading and the folks in the Penthouse seem unaware. Perhaps a result of the OOC room's purge, but I have also noticed a shortage of ops observing the RP rooms. One at most, very often none at all.

I have asked several people to stay registered long enough to voice their feeling here, but don't assume that everyone responding here are in fact those people, please!

I am not trying to take over anything, I don't want to be anything but a player here.
Just trying to help, just trying to say that when 3 out of 5 people you talk to feel so restricted by the rules that creativity is hopeless, then the house should start thinking of loosening up a little.
K.I.S.S.

[Samantha Collins]

i have to agree with this, well most of it, i will certainly say that my muse for TLI isnt there im not seeing much creativity on the part of the OPs and the other players and with out that theres just no more muse. and i agree that the rules should be loosened a little.

[Keegan]

Sadly I do need to agree with a good amount of this. I have found many logged in but so few rping now. The number of players has gone down and the creativaty has gone down a bit as well. It's gotten a lot harder to find someone that works at one of the shops because there are so few that do now as well. I miss seeing the days when I first started and there were so many people on. I do miss rping with many that are not longer playing.

[Malekith]

I have to agree about the lack of activity, it is rather dead here, but that is my observation, other than to make that statement, I'm staying out of this one.

[Sorgram]

I have seen not necessarily a lack of creativity, but I have seen a lack of wanting to join in for things. I have offered work in a new place, new type of work and a chance to work in Valencia. No interest, no questions asked about it, no nothing. It would help expand Valencia and I was saddened to see no interest.

However, I understand life is cyclical. I think it will bounce back if we stay with it and continue to strive to keep it alive. It required dedication and we must consider that a lot of our long time players have RL and do not live here 24/7. Life throws wrenchs at stained glass windows in a banana peeling factory and well, we deal with it and when all is fixed we come back and play. I hope that is the case here and i intend to try my best to be around as long as possible, even if I have to shut the place down and lock the doors myself.

S.

[Almondus]

I agree.

There has been a bit of a swing back into the RP side of it by a few players. I know that Sunday Lotaneth had a fun quest where there were more people looking to take part then seats available and that Thunder has two more for us coming along the way.

Others have voiced interest in running them and have been taking actions to contact the people needed to make them come to fruition.

From a personal standpoint I have more RP then time to spend on it and have been using it to make friends and try and create storylines that are inclusive towards others and know others have that bug in their ear as well. Keq for instance in spending the last month in trying to petition in getting an active temple run by her character.

There is a will to create out there. It's just a matter of getting the spotlight on it for the community. Not everyone checks the fourms, and I would agree that there was a bit of a shift in the wrong direction after the closing of the ooc room. Several long term players here and friends of mine have voiced such concerns to me in pm.

If people want to liven the place up a bit, there just needs to be a greater sense of adventure. Take risks.. walk randomly around the inn icly even if there's no one in there, or if there's no one that your character might be physically attracted too.. there's still plenty of opportunity for story.

No, I don't think this place is going to die out in a month or a year. But people can drop away, fade.. and I'd rater not see that happen since this place for all it's flaws and triumphs has been a kind of home to me. Tawny's going to be doing another slave for a day shorty and the nobles will be doing whatever it is that the nobles do.. er.. who knows.. maybe they can start getting their houses more proactive in meta politics.. I know that there'd be plenty of players wanting to get in on that.

[Tehya]

Maybe its just a place I am at in real life, but I think if there is a will there is a way...which means doing some ooc recruitment and getting people excited about a story-line. For some reason the message boards aren't used as much as they should be.

We have plenty of events going on for June if you take a look at the calendar, but some out of character explaining might motivate people. I know Sorgram has a good story-line with the Mephos if people were drawn in maybe they would actually rp to adventure there to see it... spontaneously rp might stir the desire to work there?

Of course new games forming thinking they will be better than this one, is an old story. This game has been around for 11 years for one reason, its a good game, good url, with a dedicated staff. Games form and fall, but this game will keep standing.

So why don't we motivate people more, get a random group together and if you have a ship... go out and sail it with guests on it, or if you have a new interest with jobs, take them there to see it, or better yet assign a motivator IC. Something like a town crier perhaps. Personally I think a Town Crier would be a fun position to play, and maybe the Inn or Imperial could have them work for a salary. Even two or three would be fun to have since irl takes people's time up and they can't rp as much as they like.

Alren had the right idea holding his events Memorial Day weekend, and we have some new people working on quests which may be fun.

[miyuka]

Lack of creativity. I disagree fully, because people who RP, that I see RP and that I RP with are creative. I enjoy reading your people's RP and I've been giving out way more exp to people as of late because of it. No, I don't always inform people of when I do such. Anywho. Now if you're saying there's a lack of creativity because of there not being a lot of quest going on, then I think yer using the word wrong. Sure, there aren't a ton of people in every channel at all times of the day, but people are getting on, RPing and having fun. IS everyone IC and RPing? No, but it's been like that forever and a day now. As someone that's been here for the 10 of the 11 years this game has been going on, I've seen quite a bit and there are times that the game will feel like it's waning in participation, but never has this game lacked creativity and it most certainly does not lack it now.

Also, keep in mind, this game is a hobby, with the exception of SB, no one is paying for anything to keep it going. There is a difference between being creative with what you are given and trying to break the mold by going beyond the rules or scope of what was intended by the creator of the game. There is a section here on the MB that informs people of the various events and going ons that more players need to use and be aware of. I keep reading that people are voicing their concerns in PM. Voicing concerns in PM doesn't really get said concerns out in a public forum. Again, we have an Message Board for that purpose.

[L`aquera]

Oy vey.. go away to take care of a friend and all the creativity went out the window? That surely can't be so.

But just in case one might think it is. Or maybe several! As the owner of the first post has said. Lets do a lil exercise in asking what you want in creativity. And please, above all, don't just say "More Quest" "More shops open" "More Rape!" More can mean lots of things but its not very specific.

Thank you.

[Hector]

I thought I'd toss my two cents in here, give a newcomer's view on things. I arrived this week, so I can't make any presumptions about how "Things used to be". But, I do have my take on the game since I've arrived.

Yes, it's not the biggest, especially during UK times, but I've yet to come on and find no one at all playing. In my two scenes, I've had one character ambushed by a slaver and collared (totally off the cuff, we did all the OOC MB stuff and got approved quickly - the system seems to support creativity there), had a freeform fight with a level 19 and won, then had a dice fight against a level 2 and lost. I've had another character wander round the Inn for an evening, during which he encountered arguing Torians, drunk goblins, a wemic hitting on a centaur and trying to defend her from said goblins, and a Mistress/Slave pair of elves with an interest in exhibitionism and sharing. I even saw a very drunk goblin called Thibblewibble get laid in hilarious fashion.

That seems pretty creative to me.

[Phaing]

Oy vey.. go away to take care of a friend and all the creativity went out the window? That surely can't be so.

But just in case one might think it is. Or maybe several! As the owner of the first post has said. Lets do a lil exercise in asking what you want in creativity. And please, above all, don't just say "More Quest" "More shops open" "More Rape!" More can mean lots of things but its not very specific.

Thank you.

More?
No,not more, I would like to see less.
As in, fewer restrictions.

This may not be the minefield it seems at first blush;

Quests- I wanted some way to use my ship {called the Indiscreet ) for something, so I went in search of a GM willing to run an approved quest. Sorgram, being the awesome piece of work he is, agreed, and will be running one at the end of this month.
My quest for this Quest bears fruit, 6 months after I started.

IMHO, the small handful of people that want to run little mini-Quests for no other purpose but RP fun should be allowed to do so. NPCs that spring into existence, and then cease to be the moment the adventure is over, don't seem to be much of a threat to the status quo. Its just a matter of XP and a howling good time... but with the weeks that go by in the usual process, the people we wanted to do it with have RL troubles, and so on.
Frustrating.

Shops?
Now that people are being paid more for working more, I'm seeing this as less of a problem. Hell, all I had to do was ask the last time I wanted a shop open and it was done ten minutes later. That's fucking incredible compared to the way it used to be, and Kudos to whoever made the changes!
However, there are people who want to open a new business, but can't figure out how to (RL bleed-through?) or find the process too much for them.
Free-lancing does not seem to work for them, seems like you have to be in business to get business.

And, I'm trying to stick with a theme of less complexity here, but there does seem to be a lot of angst with the whole Freelance system, both from ops and participants. Maybe just toss it out and have people sell directly to shops?
(duck and cover time?)

Finally, there is Mr. "Some things iv noticed" viewtopic.php?f=233&t=16919 , who's energy I have tried to direct into useful channels; a mercantile clearing house could serve a good many functions, including making ship ownership a profitable proposition. This fellow seems to have the ideas and the drive to make it happen, worth a shot?
Might be a good way to consolidate a few things.

More Rapes?
Well, we'd need some more determined and clever rapists for that to happen...

[L`aquera]

More?
No,not more, I would like to see less.
As in, fewer restrictions.

You have a lot less restrictions of less and a few more in different fields. Please explain!

This may not be the minefield it seems at first blush;

Quests- I wanted some way to use my ship {called the Indiscreet ) for something, so I went in search of a GM willing to run an approved quest. Sorgram, being the awesome piece of work he is, agreed, and will be running one at the end of this month.
My quest for this Quest bears fruit, 6 months after I started.

There are very few restrictions on Quest but I'll give you the rundown and be as specific as I can;
1: No pulling words, demons, vampires, werewolves, creatures from other games. Create your own or from the list we have on the site! Yes, we have a list you can 'use' at any time. Or do something more creative on your own.
2: Do not promise anyone an msiop until you've talked to one of the SI people and have a finished product to give, during a quest.
3: DO MB PM one of the Quest teams with your plottings and plans for a large quest and or event. With all ideas, monsters and mayhem to what type of dice will be used, IF any!
4: Do not bite off more then you can chew and don't bite any of my quest people for giving and or telling you directions, decisions or thoughts!
5: Have fun!

IMHO, the small handful of people that want to run little mini-Quests for no other purpose but RP fun should be allowed to do so. NPCs that spring into existence, and then cease to be the moment the adventure is over, don't seem to be much of a threat to the status quo. Its just a matter of XP and a howling good time... but with the weeks that go by in the usual process, the people we wanted to do it with have RL troubles, and so on.
Frustrating.

I'm confused! You can do these. You simply must inform an op.

Shops?
Now that people are being paid more for working more, I'm seeing this as less of a problem. Hell, all I had to do was ask the last time I wanted a shop open and it was done ten minutes later. That's fucking incredible compared to the way it used to be, and Kudos to whoever made the changes!
However, there are people who want to open a new business, but can't figure out how to (RL bleed-through?) or find the process too much for them.
Free-lancing does not seem to work for them, seems like you have to be in business to get business.

I can and cannot answer that as fully without rhetorical bleeding through. However, I'll attempt this. New business are plausible. But, you need to have a good idea that hasn't been out there and, know how it all works. Mainly, you need to know how to manage said shop, what you want to sell, what given price you want to give items and how to use the system to add and delete from your shops payroll. Organization is a plus and a must! All ideas must be turned into equally SB and Ehlanna as owners. Their say is all in such regard. No with them? No go with anyone else I'm afraid. Its hard work, and we already have several shops that were player made that have dwindled into nothingness for lack of... whatever. Who knows. Time. Banned. No more interest, internet connections, Real life intrusion. These all play their parts, they also make us cringe when someone has this GREAT idea as we weigh the good and the bad.

And, I'm trying to stick with a theme of less complexity here, but there does seem to be a lot of angst with the whole Freelance system, both from ops and participants. Maybe just toss it out and have people sell directly to shops?
(duck and cover time?)

Sell what? In particular? Lets narrow this down.

Finally, there is Mr. "Some things iv noticed" viewtopic.php?f=233&t=16919 , who's energy I have tried to direct into useful channels; a mercantile clearing house could serve a good many functions, including making ship ownership a profitable proposition. This fellow seems to have the ideas and the drive to make it happen, worth a shot?
Might be a good way to consolidate a few things.

Heres the issue. When you go freelance, you must have a clear picture in your mind of what you want to do in that freelance mode. Is it making paintings? How about hunting? Glassware? Fishing? Tanning leather? Making jewelry? All things are possible, IF you have the skills set to go along 'with' it. And the time, and the tools, and the needed items to make these things. You can't just go into the woods, lay down some traps and consider all traps filled. Like anything you must rp practice getting something right. And then RP out doing it and capturing and curing and... you get me. ONCE you've done all these things? Find the shop, noble, person that is interested in 'buying' your items and setting a price. SOMETIMES I'll add it all up in my head and think, thats a worthy price, as I've done with many that have come to me. Sometimes I rp it out with haggling a price. EVERY op is different, so is a shop worker. Or manager really. Payouts are easy to give but we also demand proof of 'service' if you will. Meaning sending in logs. Sometimes I won't require them as I watch the channels and see people doing freelance work. I do not feel the need to make them send me jack, or jill, or a hill! But others are more picky and want it. Its the proper thing to do and Sut will probably hit me about the head and body for not always getting a log. See what you made me confess? *shakes Fist*

Secondly, while he has good thoughts, we can't put everything into a warehouse and sell, thats what the Bazaar was to do and I rarely see it utilized. Go buy a cusack from Sut, I think thats the word I'm looking for, or space as it is, in the place and sell your wares. But you will be required to show logs of said wears and the materials you bought and how you used them. Thats simply a most. Nothing comes for free but that is the beauty of this world. You work for what you want and you role play out what you are working for to have and you gain xp and experience! Its not just dropped in your lap. Its creative. Its meant to give the player said creativity to manipulate on their fancy whims. Otherwise, where is the fun of just being handed it all? Might as well go play your old games on your old xbox for that.

viewtopic.php?f=233&t=16919More Rapes?
Well, we'd need some more determined and clever rapists for that to happen...[/quote]

There are plenty out there. Try being spontaneous and communicating with your partners.

[Phaing]

Thanks for the very complete answer, I'll try my best to do it justice, but I have a few people to hunt down before I can cover all of it.
And more time.
For now-

I'm confused! You can do these. You simply must inform an op.

Well, fuck me to tears... I would have been able to do that if I had told the op first?
Okay, that's news to me, major news! This is a huge help, and I'll be doing stuff with that soon.

Sell what? In particular? Lets narrow this down.

Hm, well this is not the usual thing, but dozens of tons of stuff... the cargo capacity of the ships we have. The smallest sea-going ship carries 50 tons max., which is a can of worms if we try to get too detailed.

The easy way, and the way it goes now, a ship costs and makes nothing on a day-to-day basis. We pretend that revenues and costs balance each other, and have this huge & expensive toy standing by for use as a plot-device or use in the occasional Quest, maybe.
Its simple and easy, and now that I know I can use it as more than a conversational piece on my own, that will work for most people involved, IMHO.

Creating a scale for all goods and covering the pay for the crew and maintenance costs would be a real PITA for all involved, especially for the ops that have to keep track of it.

I'll propose an easier way to go; Once a month the engaged ship-owners can approach an office and the one running it can do a roll of the dice based on tonnage divided by crewmen to see how much profit the ship-owner walks away with. Or loses... there is a chance that prices or damage to the ship actually costs the owner more than he planned. This should not be discouraging to someone that makes regular trips (the formula should be weighted towards success) but it will make people think twice who would normally dabble and then walk away.

For ships that roll only once every two or three months to simulate longer trips to exotic lands, we can add a multiplier in there, at each end. A daring captain could make the worth of his ship in one trip... or end up wishing he's never never seen the damn thing.

I could work up a formula, if this sounds like a reasonable idea.

[Stormbringer]

I'm not going to get into specifics, which are being answered elsewhere. I'm going to remind newer players what we are. Or what we are not. We are not, and never have been, a place which promised entertainment. I realise that the internet is now full of MMORPG's that lay on everything for you from buying equipment to providing quests on demand, and so on. If you come from those, that isn't what we do.

Belariath, and its IRC incarnation, pre-dates many of them and was created as a shell in which individual players could build characters who would develop over time. Not just by adding levels and buying whizzy weapons but by interacting with others and having those interactions become a part of their history. To do that the world became far more detailed than that of most free-for-all rooms. But it still remains a shell for what you make of it.

That detail does create restrictions for sure. You can't just show up at the Inn and announce you are the ruler of a lost kingdom who knows 12345th level karate and who carries a planet-busting laser cannon in his jock strap. Well you can, but you won't last long! You have to make what you will of your starting character, leave yourself open to random events and take the consequences of your actions in an ongoing world. Others can and will devise quests and events that you can join, but quite frankly, if you never do anything but sit around waiting for pre-scripted entertainment, you're a part of the problem not a part of the solution.

Now on another topic, mini events are encouraged but those that occur within TLI channels do need to accept the basic limitations of the environment. We can't realistically have someone running an event that arbitrarily destroys the Baths or that holds a Black Mass in the temple. (Not because we have anything against sacrificing virgins, symbolically at least, but because Satanism requires the existence of Christianity)

On the other hand, mini events that go beyond TLI can be performed in temporary channels and so long as they are temp chans and not another established game, there is no penalty to inviting TLI players to take part. You can also ask for an Op to help but it's up to them if they have time, and Des won't be there but there may be some random exp handed out. Maybe not though, and that seems to be a problem in that a lot of players refuse to even be entertained unless they are guaranteed rewards as well. Again, if that is you, you are a part of the problem not a part of the solution.

Want to be a part of the solution? Just do it. Visit the channels IC with an open mind, take part without a script, stop counting how much exp and mh you can get for every word you type. The world is what you make of it, not what we make of it for you.

[Phaing]

You can't see it, but I'm doing my Happy Dance right now.
(which is just as well, I'm not so good at the cartwheels anymore)

I'm happy because this is not turning into a bunch of pointless bitchin' and looks more like something that will really be helpful.
It already has been for me!

Even SB gets into it;

Want to be a part of the solution? Just do it. Visit the channels IC with an open mind, take part without a script, stop counting how much exp and mh you can get for every word you type. The world is what you make of it, not what we make of it for you.

It already came as a revelation that we can do mini-adventures of our own, I'll be doing more of that soon.

Can't count the number of new players I have taken by the hand and hauled them into an RP, and spent hours trying to get them into the swing of thing... as it were.
Even if it's frustrating half the time, the other half of the time its rewarding and makes you some good cyber friends when it all comes together. I suggest more folks give it a try, rather than stay with the same old gang.