Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Questions and suggestions about the rules of the roleplay and how things work

Moderators: L`aquera, Stormbringer, Ehlanna, lyllamarie

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:53 pm

I didn't even take enchantments into consideration with this discussion, but any class can get the enchantments. I as a warlord could get the phyiscal armor, and the magical armor and have them stack with my regular defense enchantments. I don't do that for IC reasons, but I could. Also my last question was based on WHY his stats were better then mine, Crow. I assumed he did in fact buy the 15 slot spell, and didn't spend stat points on it. Yes, we can buy stat potions to make our stats better, but it's rather expensive. Also, why should I buy more equipment slots? You get enough free ones for armor, weapons, and even slaves. Sure if you have a lot of slaves you do have to spend more, but I have more then enough without spending any points in it.

Also, I just did the average that way because it's not about how many points I put into it. I just looked at the over all average. Each time I put a point into stam I had to put two because no other stats required one. Sure, my stat is rather high, but it won't be getting any higher.

To clarify the question better. He has a mage class, but little to no spells. He didn't take any ranged spells, he took one defense spell that he cannot use, but nothing that really makes him much of a mage. He has those advantages by ignoring the things that make him a mage. So why take the mage class when in order to compete stat wise you need to completely ignore your spells.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:40 pm

Logolar wrote:I didn't even take enchantments into consideration with this discussion, but any class can get the enchantments. I as a warlord could get the phyiscal armor, and the magical armor and have them stack with my regular defense enchantments. I don't do that for IC reasons, but I could.

True, enchantments are available to all. (Except monks, not that I am bitter or anything. ^.~ )
But the issue is not their availability, rather it is that there is an exclusive class of def mods that exist only to hinder physical attacks, armor. There is no equivalent armor that stops magic. Which means physical defense will almost always be higher than magical defense. merely be virtue of the armor you have enchanted those Def enchantments on to. (The cost would be earned back for mithril after all.)

Logolar wrote: Also my last question was based on WHY his stats were better then mine, Crow.

Because they are higher, and thus, objectively better. Just pretend he will exactly mirror your build and put 1 more point into each stat. Better in that sense. How he actually choose to divide his stats in reality is not the issue.
Logolar wrote:I assumed he did in fact buy the 15 slot spell, and didn't spend stat points on it.

Most likely. Though he also has 13 free spell slots merely from being level 40 as a mage. So it seems reasonable to assume he did not buy 10-15 with MHL.
Logolar wrote:Yes, we can buy stat potions to make our stats better, but it's rather expensive. Also, why should I buy more equipment slots? You get enough free ones for armor, weapons, and even slaves. Sure if you have a lot of slaves you do have to spend more, but I have more then enough without spending any points in it.


I agree. But the mage has exactly the same resources. So we can leave upgrades that are available to both, and have equal effectiveness, out of the equation for simplicity's sake. Such as stat potions, perm enchants, activated enchants, etc. (Armor, on the other hand, not equal in effectiveness.)
Logolar wrote:Also, I just did the average that way because it's not about how many points I put into it. I just looked at the over all average. Each time I put a point into stam I had to put two because no other stats required one. Sure, my stat is rather high, but it won't be getting any higher.

You cannot look at the average that way because your results will be flawed. The stam stat should only weigh half as heavily in your calculation. Think of it like attempting to count a pile of 10 silver dollars and 10 fifty-cent pieces. If you merely count the all the coins and conclude you have 20 dollars (And thus average out that each coin is worth 1 dollar) you will be off by a significant margin.

Logolar wrote:To clarify the question better. He has a mage class, but little to no spells. He didn't take any ranged spells, he took one defense spell that he cannot use, but nothing that really makes him much of a mage. He has those advantages by ignoring the things that make him a mage. So why take the mage class when in order to compete stat wise you need to completely ignore your spells.

Again, I am not comfortable with attempting to discuss another person's build. And especially with not implying that he is not being a mage correctly. It cannot possibly end well.

We are not talking specifically about Lucas, but about some hypothetical mage with the same total stats and a straight forward 15 firebolt spell. Who as a result has better stats than a warrior, and still has the advantage of using magic rolls. (I dunno, call her 'Azula' for the hell of it.)

Now, with that in mind, does the question still apply?
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:13 pm

It wouldn't have the same total stats, unless it bought all the prerequisites with mhl. They are two 10 slots spells that go into getting fireball. Air mage also has that with thier spells, and even earth mage with some. The only one who doesn't require stuff like that is Water mage, but that's a whole new bucket of bolts. Bottom line is, if they don't spend any points in spells, yes. The mage will have the same ammount of points, but that's rather rare. Most at least spend the points to buy slots 10-15, even if they buy everything else themselves. It doesn't add up to much, but over time it changes.

Also, yes...The mage can get a +15 to attack, and our defense can only be about 30 if we min and max, but then stats come into play. If they are both even, but why would they be? After a certain point you don't need stam and life anymore. The mage on the other hand will spend 16 stam, or more a round casting that spell. I hit that point on stam, but still need more life duel to double damage spells. In that case they would have an advantage, but I cannot tell you the amount of times I have seen it. I've never faced a similar level mage that I didn't have a chance with. I win more often then not, but I didn't really see that until I hit level 20 or so. I had what, six or seven deaths before that. (Not all due to fighting similiar levels though.) In my case it has been fairly balanced, and rarely do 15 points make too much of a difference. Random dice being what they are, with enough life...You are ok. !damage rolls usually suck anyway.

Also, if you want to use the argument of them buying spell points. The consideration of us buying stat potions should be taken into effect. Sure they can get them, but who has that money? Maybe us older people, but by then most of us have enough difference in level for it to not matter.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:36 pm

Logolar wrote:It wouldn't have the same total stats, unless it bought all the prerequisites with mhl. They are two 10 slots spells that go into getting fireball. Air mage also has that with thier spells, and even earth mage with some. The only one who doesn't require stuff like that is Water mage, but that's a whole new bucket of bolts. Bottom line is, if they don't spend any points in spells, yes. The mage will have the same ammount of points, but that's rather rare. Most at least spend the points to buy slots 10-15, even if they buy everything else themselves. It doesn't add up to much, but over time it changes.

Just to clarify, I said Firebolt, not fireball. The basic one.

Also, yes...The mage can get a +15 to attack, and our defense can only be about 30 if we min and max, but then stats come into play. If they are both even, but why would they be? After a certain point you don't need stam and life anymore. The mage on the other hand will spend 16 stam, or more a round casting that spell.

That is where a focus enchant comes into play. Which costs less than the warriors weapon+enchant to get. So at max 9sta a round. Even less if they choose to fire on lower slots. (Suppose they are wearing merely +7armor, they can drop down to 1sta spells at 7slots and still break even with the warrior in terms of modifiers. Every point of armor after that the advantage climbs higher for the mage.)

I hit that point on stam, but still need more life duel to double damage spells. In that case they would have an advantage, but I cannot tell you the amount of times I have seen it. I've never faced a similar level mage that I didn't have a chance with. I win more often then not, but I didn't really see that until I hit level 20 or so. I had what, six or seven deaths before that. (Not all due to fighting similiar levels though.) In my case it has been fairly balanced, and rarely do 15 points make too much of a difference. Random dice being what they are, with enough life...You are ok. !damage rolls usually suck anyway.

The fact that many people unwittingly/willingly gimp themselves does not make it balanced that a mage can do exactly what a warrior can, but better.

Neither does the fact that random dice rolls will allow a favored fighter to lose. Technically Stormbringer can lose a fight, if the dice are dickish enough, but that doesn't mean Godhood isn't overpowered. xD

Of course, I've merely been talking about standard attacks. That's not even touching on actual effects.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:46 pm

See, Fire bolt is a mage spell. That's why I didn't take it into consideration. You have to buy it and get the 15 points in it before you hit fire mage. If you do not, you do not get the spell. Even resets don't help you with this. You -still- need the spell before you choose to become a fire mage. So you wouldn't get the 14 free spell points, you would instead either have to invest the mhl. Which is 5450. I don't remember having that kind of money at level 1-9. Sure, I can only get +6 to say AGI for the similar pay, but it works on every spell they might have. So if they were to stay a basic mage, sure...They could use the free spells to get fire bolt, but then the stat difference from being a basic class comes into play.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:01 am

Logolar wrote:See, Fire bolt is a mage spell. That's why I didn't take it into consideration. You have to buy it and get the 15 points in it before you hit fire mage. If you do not, you do not get the spell. Even resets don't help you with this. You -still- need the spell before you choose to become a fire mage. So you wouldn't get the 14 free spell points, you would instead either have to invest the mhl. Which is 5450. I don't remember having that kind of money at level 1-9. Sure, I can only get +6 to say AGI for the similar pay, but it works on every spell they might have. So if they were to stay a basic mage, sure...They could use the free spells to get fire bolt, but then the stat difference from being a basic class comes into play.


First of all, I don't think anyone is unaware that all bought spells reset into blank spell slots. So yes, buying a spell before the reset would most certainly help. You had a reset, surely you noticed.

Second, at a mere lvl 5 a cat magex2 would have access to 11 free spell slots without spending a single point. All he has to do is buy firebolt 1-4 for 400 mhl. Not 11-15 for 5450 or however much it is. (Not that I would advice actually doing this at lvl 5, but that is how early you'd be able to do so for next to no cost or loss in points.)

Since the rest of the post predicated on the idea of this being impossible, I don't have a further response.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:25 am

Still, with reset. Unless I am wrong, you have to complete it in order to play your character, so you couldn't buy it during that time, but this is starting to go round and round. People can get free spells at the sacrifice of everything else. Then can make mages that have equal stat points. It's rare, but it can happen. They could in that situation make it so there stats are balanced. Instead of the heavy hitters that most people try to be. Then can get the same amount of physical defense as a warrior, with maybe a little difference because we have better armor. Magical defense for both is the same, but they get +15 to attack for it, but at the same time. You don't attack their magical defense so it doesn't matter much. All of that doesn't really matter, because it's about what players do. They spend points in spells. They focus on hitting heavy instead of defense. They don't get enough stam to use their build. To get the extra to physical defense, and magical defense they are spending 30 stam. They don't get enough life to handle more then one or two hits because -it's not important- instead they focus on trying to knock people out. So I look at it as balanced because of my experience with it. I have lost randomly to lower levels, and won with higher levels, but that doesn't matter. I have the knowledge of dice because I'm that type of person, but I'm here ultimately for the play. The difference of 3 points or even 15 isn't going to make much of a difference when I'm rolling anywhere from 0-160. Only during low levels did this really effect me, now it's just flavor. I prefer FF so I can get more story, and so that the fights aren''t so scripted.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:08 am

Logolar wrote:Still, with reset. Unless I am wrong, you have to complete it in order to play your character, so you couldn't buy it during that time,

Yes you would have to play before you complete it. But you can buy 5 slots of any random spell before you reset, which will reset into empty spell slots. You can then reset, and at the level 5 point add 15firebolt slots, then carry on and take your advanced class.

but this is starting to go round and round.

I'm not sure I'd refer to raising objections and addressing them as going in circles. Unless they were the same objections every time. Merely arriving at the same conclusion isn't a bad thing.
People can get free spells at the sacrifice of everything else. Then can make mages that have equal stat points. It's rare, but it can happen. They could in that situation make it so there stats are balanced. Instead of the heavy hitters that most people try to be.

Although I do feel that discussions on the viability of a specific build (heavy hitter, defensive, allround) are interesting, and I love discussing them, they are not relevant to the disscussion of the balance between mages and warriors.
Then can get the same amount of physical defense as a warrior, with maybe a little difference because we have better armor. Magical defense for both is the same, but they get +15 to attack for it, but at the same time. You don't attack their magical defense so it doesn't matter much.

Right like:
Mage: 15slots vs 15 def enchant = 0 net atk (9sta)
Mage: 8slots vs 15 def enchant = -7 net atk (2sta)
Warrior: 15weapon vs 15 def enchant + 10 armor = -10 net atk (2sta)

All of that doesn't really matter, because it's about what players do. They spend points in spells. They focus on hitting heavy instead of defense. They don't get enough stam to use their build. To get the extra to physical attack, and magical attack they are spending 30 stam. They don't get enough life to handle more then one or tow hits because -it's not important- instead they focus on trying to knock people out. So I look at it as balanced because of my experience with it. I have lost randomly to lower levels, and won with higher levels, but that doesn't matter. I have the knowledge of dice because I'm that type of person, but I'm here ultimately for the play. The difference of 3 points or even 15 isn't going to make much of a difference when I'm rolling anywhere from 0-160. Only during low levels did this really effect me, now it's just flavor. I prefer FF so I can get more story, and so that the fights aren''t so scripted.


Like I said, people are allowed to gimp themselves intentionally or unwittingly, but the fact that people may do so does not affect the actual balance of the games systems. As such, the argument that "Mages will have lower stats than warriors." is not a valid argument. As was demonstrated. That is all.

The point was merely that there is this misconception floating around that all the awesome spells mages get are balanced out because the warriors are better at the actual stats, while mages get the effects. Which is blatantly false, because mages can get both if they so choose.


Honestly, if everyone's opinion is moved from:
"Warriors have better stats than mages, thus balance."
to:
"Okay so mages have the same stats, and are objectively like 3 points better statistically than warriors, who cares about 3 points?"
I'll consider that one step closer to getting the problem solved. ^^
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:25 am

See, you're factoring money into a stat discussion. You're not giving the warrior the same consideration. They can spend the same amount of money that the mage is spending on all of these spells. They would then easily outclass the other. It's only +6 (almost 7) per +15 slot that the person is getting, but if they do this with three spells you've already made up the difference. You chose cat person, which has the most spell slots. You did not take into consideration that some of them are OOB spells. You mentioned buying for reset, you did not take into consideration that you can only choose so many spells per level up section upon a reset. All of these things have to be taken into consideration. -Yes- with the money a mage can become horribly over powered, but so can a physical class.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:02 am

I'm not feeling very motivated to do the research again when you just told me you don't care.
But alright.

Logolar wrote:See, you're factoring money into a stat discussion. You're not giving the warrior the same consideration. They can spend the same amount of money that the mage is spending on all of these spells. They would then easily outclass the other.

'Azula' spent: (Ignoring shared armor and def enchant costs)
400mhl on 4 spell slots.
975mhl on 7 focus. (Mithril)
----------
1375mhl

VS

Warrior:
500mhl on +5atk (This leaves 875mhl)
Pick a weapon:
2000mhl on Crystal Sword (the only +9)
450mhl on Great Sword (+8)
325mhl on Buster Sword (+7)
300mhl on No-Dachi (+6)
95mhl on Poleaxe(+5)

That attack mod plummets pretty hard though. But say you end up with about... 500mhl worth of spending money. What investment do you suggest that would make up for this difference?

It's only +6 (almost 7) per +15 slot that the person is getting, but if they do this with three spells you've already made up the difference.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

You chose cat person, which has the most
spell slots. You did not take into consideration that some of them are OOB spells.

I picked cat because it was the first on the list. Human also has 4. I'm sure there are races with more or less slots.
Edit: I forgot to mention, no they are not OOB spells.
You mentioned buying for reset, you did not take into consideration that you can only choose so many spells per level up section upon a reset.

I did not take that into consideration because it is wrong. If you go to the edit character page you don't have the instantly press the level up button every time. You can simply scroll down to the spell slots at the bottom of your character page and allot them at your leisure.
All of these things have to be taken into consideration. -Yes- with the money a mage can become horribly over powered, but so can a physical class.

These things were taken into consideration. Give me a little bit of credit. I'm a professional bitcher. ^.~
Given the same funds, Mages are the more powerful choice in every occasion, if handled correctly.
Although, if given near infinite funds, I am interested to see how a warrior with a +5atk+9DMG weapon would fare. Though I assume they would go down like a sack of potatoes because the 56400 mhl required to perm enchant energybolt&firebolt&iceshards to a weapon would give the mage access to whatever dirty anti-melee spell their sphere has lined up. Or at least 70 stat potions. xD
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:16 am

I was referring to stat potions. Also that's only for one spell. When is the last time you saw a mage with one spell? Most of the time they buy slots 1-10 and spend the points on getting the 15 slots. If you are using the physical or magic armor they either had to buy the spell, enchantment or slots. Also crystal sword has class and race limitations.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:24 am

Logolar wrote:I was referring to stay potions.

Why do you keep bringing that up when I've never suggested they would need more than the firebolt to be objectively better already?

Also that's only for one spell. When is the last time you saw a mage with one spell? Most of the time they buy slots 1-10 and spend the points on getting the 15 slots.

Irrelevant. The single spell is sufficient to be superior. Why would you keep buying spells? (Well, obviously there might be an occasion where a specific spell is so fantastically broken that it may be worth the investment.)
If you are using the physical or magic armor they either had to buy the spell, enchantment or slots.

That would fall under shared costs for both mage and warrior. Thus can be discarded for simplicity.

Also crystal sword has class and race limitations.

I am aware of that. But what was my alternative, not list it? It is the single best weapon in the game. I did tell you to pick one.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:55 am

I am mentioning Stat potions because it's a viable alternative that -physical classes- can buy. For every spell that the magic class decides to bring to +15 they can afford 6.8 potions. Also, it's an easy thing to pump your spare cash into. Also you are mentioning the cost of the piece a warrior decides to place the +5 atk to, but not what the focus enchant is being placed on. Also, in this case. If the person were to get the 15 slot spell. At level five you would have to dump 20 stat points just into stam. 16 for the spell, 2 for defending from the other, and two more so you can evade. This would then bring your stats below the warriors, thus making up the difference.

Also, if you don't believe me that some of the slots on creation are OOB, Create a character. I know for a fact that they are.
The player of: Gravik, Falador, and logolar.
Logolar
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:53 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:17 am

Logolar wrote:I am mentioning Stat potions because it's a viable alternative that -physical classes- can buy. For every spell that the magic class decides to bring to +15 they can afford 6.8 potions.

Okay. Now. Can you imagine I find that mindly annoying? I am advocating that 1 spell is enough. Stop trying to make me defend this idea that if I decided to buy a second spell, the warrior get's 6.8 potions. It is NOT my position that the mage would need two spells. Now please quit trying to strawman me with this.

Also, it's an easy thing to pump your spare cash into.

Agreed, but mages can do so too. So this is only relevant if there is a significant difference in MHL, which there isn't. The warrior has roughly 500mhl to spend.

Also you are mentioning the cost of the piece a warrior decides to place the +5 atk to, but not what the focus enchant is being placed on.

1 of the 3 pieces of mithril armor that the def enchant is also on. Probably Vambraces, Greaves and something else. These are armor pieces and enchantments that the warrior would need to have as well. So they are not mentioned in the cost comparison.

Also, in this case. If the person were to get the 15 slot spell. At level five you would have to dump 20 stat points just into stam. 16 for the spell, 2 for defending from the other, and two more so you can evade. This would then bring your stats below the warriors, thus making up the difference.

No, that is not correct. Because with a little bit of restraint you don't have to blow your 15slot load every match the second you get a 15 slot spell. A simple 1-3 spell will be quite sufficient until you can actually sustain the stamina investment without gimping your stats.

Though hey, I understand the temptation. It may even be worth it to fire all 15. I think Zully had massive success with that, might have been someone else. Could require experimentation, but I'm not doing the math on it.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:24 am

Logolar wrote:Also, if you don't believe me that some of the slots on creation are OOB, Create a character. I know for a fact that they are.

I just made a mage cat. I'm looking right at my 7 combat slots and 1 oob slot. 3 slots from the mage class. 4 from the cat race.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj120/ryonalionthunder/tli/catame_zps4npqxzh3.jpg
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Rules and Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests