Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Questions and suggestions about the rules of the roleplay and how things work

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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby Logolar on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:39 am

I keep mentioning spells, because the class -will not- have just one spell. The magic class if they buy it during 1-9 when they are still able to. Will have Magical Armor, and Physical armor. Yes, the phyiscal class will get those as well, but no magical class will just have -one- spell. You could, but then this comes down to a pure mathematical, nener nener boo boo, my character is stronger then yours. Instead, this is a RP'ing game, and people will have OOB spells, they will have other things that come into effect. I don't even use weapons/armors or enchants, and I also don't get a class bonus to make up for that. That kinda stuff doesn't or shouldn't matter, but if you want to mention the one spell being at 15, then look at your math that you posted earlier. Specifically the mention of the various defenses vs magic and physical. If they are not blowing all of that +15 for each point they are not spending that's like an extra point of defense. Still, I think it's enough. We are likely both going to stay where we are at. I believe it's fairly balanced, and there are ways to make your classes stronger. Potions being one of those, and yes I realize that everyone gets access to them, but magical classes usually spend money on spells. They don't have to, but really they don't have to do anything. It's enough for me tonight. I have't really budged on my thinking, and I'm too old and stubborn to really do so. So have a good night, and enjoy yourself.
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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:17 am

Logolar wrote:I keep mentioning spells, because the class -will not- have just one spell. The magic class if they buy it during 1-9 when they are still able to. Will have Magical Armor, and Physical armor. Yes, the phyiscal class will get those as well,

If they both have it, there is no point in treating it as a difference.
but no magical class will just have -one- spell.

There is no requirement that a magical class must have more than one spell. So even if it is against your personal sense of style, that is not an argument.
You could, but then this comes down to a pure mathematical, nener nener boo boo, my character is stronger then yours.

That would be the point of theoretical discussion for the purpose of finding out which approach is more powerful. It's how you figure out if something is balanced. I mean, that is what we're actually talking about.

But goodness, if it makes you feel any better just imagine 10k mhl in pure casual spending money for both fictional characters. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if one lived like a monk and the other like a pimp. We're simply comparing them if they spent equal amounts on their combat gear, whatever they did with the rest of it doesn't matter.
Instead, this is a RP'ing game, and people will have OOB spells, they will have other things that come into effect. I don't even use weapons/armors or enchants, and I also don't get a class bonus to make up for that. That kinda stuff doesn't or shouldn't matter,

See the above. I didn't think I would have to spell this out specifically but yes. We're simply comparing what happens if both combatants spend an equal amount of money on combat related purchases. I'm sure that they've bought houses, oob spells, slaves, tipped, and whatever else. The suggestion isn't that you should spend every last copper on combat gear. It is that if you are comparing two approaches you should treat them as having spent the same amount in that area, regardless of whatever else they might have bought.

but if you want to mention the one spell being at 15, then look at your math that you posted earlier. Specifically the mention of the various defenses vs magic and physical. If they are not blowing all of that +15 for each point they are not spending that's like an extra point of defense.

We started this by comparing lvl 40 characters. Obviously I was not referring to lvl 5's in that post. We only mentioned level 5's because you thought it was impossible to get a firebolt to 15 before getting locked out of the common sphere by your advanced class.

Still, I think it's enough. We are likely both going to stay where we are at. I believe it's fairly balanced, and there are ways to make your classes stronger. Potions being one of those, and yes I realize that everyone gets access to them, but magical classes usually spend money on spells. They don't have to, but really they don't have to do anything.

That the mage is objectively better in stats, mods, stamina usage, and effects is fairly balanced? (Unless they choose not to be.)
Well, I suppose that 500 mhl difference in expenditure must be a bigger equalizer than I thought. xD

It's enough for me tonight. I have't really budged on my thinking, and I'm too old and stubborn to really do so. So have a good night, and enjoy yourself.

I don't really understand this approach to discussion.

I made a claim that a mage would have the same stats as a warrior, and why a mage would be better than a warrior if we assume they spent the same amount on their combat. You've raised a number of objections that you believed refuted this. I did the research on your objection, then showed my findings. if any of them had been correct, I would have changed my mind. But, even if I show you the objections are factually wrong, you'd still hold to your original position? Then what was the point of even bringing them up?

Have a good night. At least this was an amusing exercise.
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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby miyuka on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:24 am

I'm amazed at how long this discussion has gone on. I swear this is like an annual event, these conversations. This should have ended at Sutara's post. Seriously, people.
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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby crow on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:38 pm

miyuka wrote:This should have ended at Sutara's post. Seriously, people.

To be fair, Sutara did make it clear such discussion was okay to have:
lyllamarie wrote:Now, as to all those formulaic ideas on how to discover whether the classes are 'really' on even playing field, why don't you go ahead and figure it out.



miyuka wrote:I'm amazed at how long this discussion has gone on. I swear this is like an annual event, these conversations.

I am amazed how even though this is an annual event ^.~ people still say things like:
miyuka wrote:Physical classes don't have to spend anywhere near as much points leveling up spells (or the insane amount of money maxing out said spells) which means they get to spend more points on actual stats. Certain classes get access to certain weapons and armour that mages do not.

When it is trivial to show:
Warriors stats higher than mages is not true if the mage simply chooses to show a little bit of restraint.
(Mages don't have to either. Nor do they have to spend much money on spells. Maxing 1 spell is free)
The weapons don't even touch the same kind of net atk mod as a spell.
The armor has no defense against magic, so doesn't factor into the discussion at all.
The monetary costs for both mages and warriors to be combat ready is practically the same.
(Btw, credit where it is due, I was genuinely surprised how balanced the mhl cost actually is. Good work.)

Yet Stats/Weapons/Armor/Cost/Stamina are still paraded around as though they are the great equalizers, they aren't. It's been shown over and over why they aren't, or even are in favor of the mage, but still that belief somehow persists. That is exactly why we have this annual event. Because apparently noone* listened to the last one. -.-;

(*When I say 'noone' I am only referring to how it appears, because those same statements are trudged out each time. It is entirely possible that behind the scenes these things are being considered, but then I'd still feel obligated to address public opinion when this crops up.)


Besides, it's fun to argue and noone is forced to read any of it.^^
(...as is repeatedly demonstrated. >.>;)
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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby miyuka on Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:00 pm

look, I don't have a problem with ya'll going back and forth about your thoughts, gripes and mathmatical formulae or whatever else about this or any other game. However this isn't the place for that. This is the suggestions portion and while this thread may have originally started out as some kind of attempt at a suggestion or even a thought, it's now just an argument, or a debate when the person in charge of dev has already said her piece on the matter. It's done now. If you two or three or whomever would like to continue this debate, just do it over PM or meet up on IRC, please.
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Re: Class Suggestion/Thoughts

Postby cheshires on Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:54 pm

"Given the same funds, Mages are the more powerful choice in every occasion, if handled correctly.
Although, if given near infinite funds, I am interested to see how a warrior with a +5atk+9DMG weapon would fare. Though I assume they would go down like a sack of potatoes because the 56400 mhl required to perm enchant energybolt&firebolt&iceshards to a weapon would give the mage access to whatever dirty anti-melee spell their sphere has lined up. Or at least 70 stat potions. xD"


^ This. The entire reason I posted to begin with is I was plotting out things to do with my character upon returning to the game and I don't have a great understanding of the rules, but just by looking over the webpage it becomes obvious that Mages have rather unlimited access to spell expansion and Warriors have.. nothing to expand except stats or equipment, or scaling. They don't have effects they can apply to themselves or the enemy. Cept maybe like Ranger shooting passive, but that's not an advanced class.
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