The OOC Room

[Ylith]

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything else, but, I have gone in the INN, made an opening post and someone reacted. I have both times had some very good RP, and with others that I hadn't RPed with before. I also noticed that the overall quality of RP was better all around.

Maybe this is going to separate the RPers from those that come here for a social club. Well, this is what TLI is for; ROLEPLAY!!!

Ok, I am now off the soapbox! no more.

[PrettylittleToi]

I seriously debated on saying anything concerning this topic since I am so new, but decided I would add my two cents in.

I have ran into the problem of going into the inn, making posts and not getting any response. Matter of fact, I can count on one hand how many times I have gotten a response and still have fingers left over. Two. I can even tell you the players’ names that did actually react. What I usually found was everyone was paired up and not paying attention to anyone around them. It was bad enough that I honestly didn’t think I would ever get integrated into this game (still question it at times).

I am not sure what the answer is to such a situation. I am more than content to jump into the inn or whatever when I have time to sit down and actually play. With that said, I do not want to sit and play with myself, just as no one else wants to sit, make posts and watch everyone else paired up playing.

[artumus obsidian]

For All that read this post make it known, I dont cae who started the drama, if thi post applies to you take it to heart. I it doesnt blow it out the other ear and ignore it.

Hi L long time no see hun. Now you know I have been here for years, I dont cause issues, drama, or ay unnessisary crap. So here is my two cents and know reguardless of what you do I support your decision cause your one of the bosses.

I have beenin the military to many years and I see plenty of this buricratic and dramatic BS. Honestly we all come here to get away from that sort of crap and have a release from real life. With that said, them closing the OOC room only feeds into the Dramatic BS. That is why IRC has temp bans from chat rooms. And this is where I lead to the point of all this, and you can pass this message along or make it into your own words if you like. Rather than effecting the lies of very communal member of belriath just cause of a few jackasses, stick with the temp bans, and let everyone get back to normal everyday life. Otherwise the moderators are no longer being the 'adults' of the room and are stooping to the 'childrens' level. The non'adults of this site will always be the same old jackasses? they will be because thisis their outlet, so why change everyones life for the actions of the few?
(making any sense?)

Now of course you guys dont owe me any sort of explanation. You guys are the ones in charge and are the ones who make the rules. I am just tossing my two cents in so we can get everything bck on track.

[everwood]

I'm going to give my perspective as a new player (a week and a couple days). No doubt this shows an inherent lack of wisdom on my part, because after all I have no idea what all this drama is about. Still, that might make my perspective unique in another way.

So on one hand we have the game, where you log in as your character and interact through your imagination. You get to play out your fantasies, providing the other players indulge you (more on that later).

On the other hand you have an OOC room, where a community of players meet for what appears to be the purpose of saying hello to other players, and making silly comments to each other. Occasionally someone will discuss wanting something in game, and they will then log on and interact.

Strictly speaking, I don't see how the OOC room is germane to the game. If anything, it probably detracts from the game in this way. As a new player, you have to just go in and start talking. Sometimes you get a response, and sometimes you have to take another approach. Perhaps you need to take a bolder action, or adjust your character's demeanor to get a response.

Once you do receive a response, you have to kind of go where the interaction leads you. A given session in the game will be a novel experience, sometimes more entertaining than others. As long as you always take this approach, the game will always be different.

Once you remove this element from the game, the game itself changes. It becomes repetitive like an mmo does. You meet in OOC, then decide what your character is going to do and who they are going to do it with. At that point you log in, perform the goal you had in mind, allowing you to easily filter out other players and events occurring in the game.

"I have gone in the INN, made an opening post and someone reacted. I have both times had some very good RP, and with others that I hadn't RPed with before. I also noticed that the overall quality of RP was better all around." -Yilth

I would suggest that attachment to OOC suggests a boredom with the game itself. Boredom with a game based solely on the imagination of the players, perhaps might mean that you aren't taking enough risks in character to spark your imagination.

[Adonai]

I'm going to give my perspective as a new player (a week and a couple days). No doubt this shows an inherent lack of wisdom on my part, because after all I have no idea what all this drama is about. Still, that might make my perspective unique in another way.

So on one hand we have the game, where you log in as your character and interact through your imagination. You get to play out your fantasies, providing the other players indulge you (more on that later).

On the other hand you have an OOC room, where a community of players meet for what appears to be the purpose of saying hello to other players, and making silly comments to each other. Occasionally someone will discuss wanting something in game, and they will then log on and interact.

Strictly speaking, I don't see how the OOC room is germane to the game. If anything, it probably detracts from the game in this way. As a new player, you have to just go in and start talking. Sometimes you get a response, and sometimes you have to take another approach. Perhaps you need to take a bolder action, or adjust your character's demeanor to get a response.

Once you do receive a response, you have to kind of go where the interaction leads you. A given session in the game will be a novel experience, sometimes more entertaining than others. As long as you always take this approach, the game will always be different.

Once you remove this element from the game, the game itself changes. It becomes repetitive like an mmo does. You meet in OOC, then decide what your character is going to do and who they are going to do it with. At that point you log in, perform the goal you had in mind, allowing you to easily filter out other players and events occurring in the game.

"I have gone in the INN, made an opening post and someone reacted. I have both times had some very good RP, and with others that I hadn't RPed with before. I also noticed that the overall quality of RP was better all around." -Yilth

I would suggest that attachment to OOC suggests a boredom with the game itself. Boredom with a game based solely on the imagination of the players, perhaps might mean that you aren't taking enough risks in character to spark your imagination.

I do see your points but OOC also helped with a few things, in truth most people like in many gaming communities don't even touch the forums, unless something big like this comes up, or to put up worklogs, it makes it a bit harder for events to pop up.

For example i posted my event almost every hour to half hour, to let people know, yet most people were like WTH/WTF is this, cause they didn't read the forums.

Now do not get me wrong i agree with points of your post, and i am sorry i recently had a newbie guide to help people but it is kinda out of comission atm, will probably bring it back up in jan or feb. Anyway to the point, it was a fun place to relax, but some children, yes, I am calling the drama producers, Children. Because the rest of us for the most part act like Adults, had to ruin it for everyone.

Atm, we do have a few side ooc channels but in truth they may or may not last, person owned rooms with random ops don't always work out. But they are trying to bring back our ooc stability, in truth i view OOC as vital, but i think the ops, should of been a bit harsher and hand out 1-2 warnings then ban for a day or two. But they do their best, they have kids, school, real life, oreo addictions... <3 ya arch lol.


Btw, Again, welcome and do not let this scare you off we don't normally have major problems, camels and straws and those backs ya know?

[Saybera]

Once upon a long, long, long time ago - when I very first learned to RP [back when computers were run by small rodents on wheels and Infernis was still in short pants] there were no OOC rooms. There were not even character sheets. It was RP for the sake of RP. When an OP was there you could PM them with a game-related question. Those OPs also had "player names" and when they were in "player name" they could not be bothered in PM with any "OP" like questions [unless they were the only one on and it was an emergency] because they wanted to play too. Aaaaaaanyway...just play for the sake of playing. Enjoy the RP THAT is what this is for RP. Its not a chat room.

Thank you OPs for what you do - that which I have done in other games in other galaxies far, far away. My hat is off to you all.

And they lived happilly ever after.

Viva La Belariath.

[Infernis]

Those were very dignified short pants.


~I~

[Archaon]

I can tell you from my standpoint that things have been heavenly quiet not having to deal with issues akin to being a high school caste system. Whether or not the OOC closing has fed or devoured what brought this issue on in the first place is unknown, but silence can be a blessing and a curse.

New folks will always have some issues starting out, regardless if there's an ooc room or not. We've all been on that boat. Veteran folks should not have issues finding rp unless issues were created to halt anyone's skill in finding rp. The few that remain that are well beyond 7-9 years of being here know how things were in what I like to call the Golden Age.. when folks like K2, Shaka, Lethtal, Cleothina.. they were constantly around. Things were great. No one pre-planned any rp. It was controlled chaos with cherries and whipped cream. People got their asses kicked, freeform combat was flying left and right and it was awesome to watch.

Then slowly.. they developed things outside of TLI, and the fun slowly dwindled away.. replaced with a clique system. Pre-planning. Weddings. Things that weren't even around. I've slowly watched this place devolve from something truly great and fun into something I feel is now a time warp back to my high school years when the cool kids got the attention, the geeks got wedgied, the bullies stole the lunch money, and the hot chicks fucked the jocks. There is no blame upon those who came before the majority here. Life is life, and things happen.. things that cannot be controlled. Some perhaps even found the place to be lacking themselves. I've tried to warn, I've tried to say "Hey, this isn't what we should be doing."

Instead, we have a group of folks that seek out loopholes. People that extort the system for their personal advantages of levels, money, sharp pointy objects to stab people. People that think someone should be with them, and only with them.. then get despicably jealous because they got tired of playing with 1 person and decided to find someone else to rp with.

Everytime we've had an issue we could not control, we had to create a rule. Rule after rule after rule churned out to prevent you folks from falling into a system that is now a shell of its former glory in my eyes. We have commands that appear redundant because we have folks that can't simply write down their equipment bonuses, or commit them to Notepad. We have to make things extremely lazy.. and in turn, some of us Ops have become just as complacent.

I can tell you now.. if we do decide to return the OOC to you folks, do not expect us to be lazy any longer. Don't expect warnings for problems that don't belong here. No warm welcomes, no pats on the shoulder, no tall, cool glasses of lemonade when the day is bright.

[Adonai]

*Sniffle* I miss the golden age.. good post archy

[Marren]

yea, I remember those golden days, I even remember a few of the names Archy mentioned. i say all the time, i've been here for 10 years, off an on. dunno if people believe it, but whatever. there wasn't an OOC room... I found #the_lonely_inn searching through the channel's list. joined the room, and holy shit! its 18+ wow, just turned 18, lets check it out! and that was that. there wasn't any weddings, or insanely jealous rpers, there was just the GAME and thats all we needed. I played a few RPG's before i was 18, no character sheets, nothing. didn't need them at all. either you could do it or not. noone held our hands.

Archaon's right. those -were- the golden ages. I'd love to see them back. simply because the quality of the game was -that- much better. yes, i love TLI, I'll never leave permanently unless i catch a perm ban for something silly. however, its a shell of what it used to be... used to be there weren't a whole lot of rules, just the basics that were set in place for the players protection. now theres a rule for everything? wtf? why? whats changed?

OOC. the addition of an OOC room changed the game seriously. I was one of the players who attached myself to the OOC room. i even had it on auto join. simply because i prefered to go -there- first, log in, and -then- go IC. when it was shut down, yea, i was pissed. so fuckin what? the fact is, heads are cooler now, time has calmed nerves and tempers, and people are letting common sense filter back into their lagged-out brains. we dont -need- an OOC room people. we -need- IC rooms, for the game, a quest channel to dice in, and an Op's channel to ask questions that are game related in. thats -it-.

some of you will realize quickly that I am an Op in one of the side OOC rooms, and be all 'wtf, thought you said we dont need an OOC room!' so I'll tell you why I'm an Op. why? I want to help. I want to do what I can for the player base, AND for the ops. yes, I op. so that I can help. answer questions when I can, help find things on the site, and honestly, several fine people go to that channel, and I like talking with them about every day life. but i dont think we need an OOC room, let alone several of them. newbies can go to #tli-ops just like everyone else when they have a question, or read the site like they are supposed to do in the first place.

See, if more people would have taken the time (myself included) to just -read the site-, we may not have had these issues at all. I read the rules when i started playing ten years ago. and there werent but a few of them! now look... all those rules? they came from bullshit that drizzled through the OOC like some infectious ooze. poison seeping through the cracks and crevaces of OOC, and infiltrating the IC realms... it has to stop. sorry... had to stop.

Archaon probably isn't exaggerating at all. about how quiet its been. and I bet the ops -love- it. some peace... quiet... who doesn't want that? time to face the music... TLI -was- better before the OOC room was opened, and now that is closed? it has the potential to be just as great. well, not just as great... the loss of a few key players makes certain the game will -never- be as good as it once was, and I still tear up when i think about those few.

I've said far more than I meant to say already. all I wanted to say was "Archaon's right. things were better back then, and the OOC is unnecessary. people need to just go IC, and reach out and touch someone!" We want the 'Golden Age' back? good! lets go and get it! its not just gonna fall in our damned laps (like some boozed up catgirl, or a sugar-saturated Pixie), we gotta -earn- it. how? by doing the 1 thing we -all- came here to do in the first place:

Roleplay.

now that I've said my piece, and a long one it is, im going to put on my 'big girl' panties, and hit the IC as hard as I can... maybe, just maybe... it'll hit back!

[crow]

Would you guys like a cane and a rocking chair on a porch to shoe kids off of? Geez it's depressing listening to selective memories in a tick glaze of nostalgia. All you're doing is telling everybody how terrible you think the game is now by comparing it to something that probably wasn't even real, that's not very helpful. Heck it's like listening to people go on about wow vanilla like it gave mind-blowing head. I might not have been here for the original tli (at least I don't remember it breaking open my screen in a burst of golden light like it apparently was supposed too) but i'm pretty sure the human mind works the same and it was nowhere near as jewel-encrusted as people remember it to be.

There's thing's about the game I'd like to see different. But the RP is still every bit as fun as it was when I joined up, as long as that holds true what else really matters?

[Marren]

see, this is a prime example of look before you leap. I had no idea SB had posted on this thread, and had I -read- his post before my previous one, some things may have been said differently... looking over it... nope. I'd still say it all just the same, except to add a few things. I'll quote SB here generically, since i can barely figure out how to use the quote function.

"The OOC room was not closed because of those who hang around swapping links to 'hilarious' videos. It wasn't closed because of the pathetic boob-squeezing pseudo-roleplay of the immature. It was closed because of it being a haven for the bitchy, the vicious, the emotionally unbalanced and the passive-aggressive who switch between being vampire and victim with the same ease that Tarzan swings through the jungle."

to that I say, HOO-fuckin-RAH! too many times have i simply left the OOC and IC rooms because of the "bitchy, the vicious, the emotionally unbalanced..." now, i dont have to worry about it! Another quote from StormBringer,

"Will the Ops continue to listen to trivial complaints and arguments, backbiting and insults, petty prejudices and immature actions? Nope. Sorry. Those days are over. The Ops will help those who need help, just as they have done since we started all those years ago. But they are not your mommy and you are not a kid any more. You are an adult who can handle yourself in a sexually explicit roleplaying channel, maintaining a dividing line between yourself and your character and with enough awareness to realise that the internet is a place of smoke and mirrors. Or you are someone who is not ready to play with adults."

again, I say Hoorah! I mean c'mon... the op's aren't machines (well... ya know.) their people too. they have a job to do, and to force them to double, triple and quite often quadruple their workload is completely unfair.

Now, I'd like to take just a moment, and THANK all the Ops. I'd list you folks by name, but i dont know all of them, and to list a few doesn't do the group justice. ya'll have one hell of a job, and my hat is off to you all. The fact that you've all stuck with us for this long is amazing, and your all really a splendid group of folks. Yes, even L`, the 'token bitch op'. And for StormBringer...

Thank you. for more than ten years, you've run a game thats had me coming back time and again... its incredible, it really is... the devotion and hard work you've poured into this game is astounding, and honestly, I'm awed by it. I have no doubt that ten years from now, this game will still be here, and you know what? so will I be!

and Crow... you know what... nevermind. I wont even start.

Sorry i put so much down on here again... i really dont mean to write so much. Blessed be folks.

[Almondus]

My personal view seems to be somewhere along crows.

Keep in mind that many of the theme's that 'crept in' later have been explored fully by the same people that end up decrying them as distractions now.

RP is RP, and this does seem to be a punishment, or tantrum because some aren't getting what they'd like. I don't know the specifics of what triggered it, but it does seem that it was latched onto by a few as a cause to make sweeping changes.

And that's fine.

As it has been pointed out time and time again, the first rule is that those in charge make the rules.

They are the ones that put out a lot of time and effort into the way of things. And do try their best to have things work out. Contrary to what a few may think, they are not infallible, and again, that's fine. But I should hope to think that they wouldn't be all that surprised of the backlash that has happened as a result of closing the ooc for reasons that.. just don't seem to have anything to do with what they're trying to accomplish by it.

There's drama in ooc! we'll close it down!

why not..

There's drama between people that are playing in the ic channels.. lets close them down too!


No, I don't think that'll happen, but it follows the same rationalization that sparked all of this in the first place. The OPs put a lot into the game, and the players do to. In my experience the vast majority of players behaved themselves in ooc and it seems that they were punished for the actions of a few.

The defense of this is that it will hopefully bring people to the 'golden age' of TLI. A time where many of the current players weren't even around.. and that the OPs hope that it will change the RP enviorment o the game: in effect.. using ooc means to affect the play stiles of people. Don't know how exactly the cause and effect there would work, but I don't like the thought of people trying to shoehorn others rp into a particular theme.

To me the obvious fix would be to just go IC and CREATE the rp environment you want around you. That's the golden rule for the players after all. If you don't see what you want, make it! The OPs all play characters that have vast IC influences and all the tools that they need to do it ICly.

There has been things done in the past to spark a bit of dark RP between the Houses.. and that usually gets stopped out by the ops that want to protect members of their own house or make sure that everything is stable and 'orderly' and under control.. This KILLs the kind of RP that that so many seem to look for.

What makes TLI a good place are the players, not so much the ops (though they do what they can). The hell with this bit about making IC changes Ocly... F'ing do it ICly.. there'd be a tone more RP out of it and more satisfaction.

The ooc channel being there or not.. isn't going to change the current play of RP in TLI. It puts some OC control in the very clicks, think the term used was 'highschoolish', that seem to be targeted as the reasons that there is so much griping.




What if the reason that people are ticked about loosing the ooc is because they thought that the OPs were doing a good job with it?

[Adonai]

So first let's have some fun I got some free time before work, so I will explain a few things, now, please. No one, take offense to this; this is aimed at no one person other than it is a reply to most:

Would you guys like a cane and a rocking chair on a porch to shoe kids off of? Geez it's depressing listening to selective memories in a tick glaze of nostalgia. All you're doing is telling everybody how terrible you think the game is now by comparing it to something that probably wasn't even real, that's not very helpful. Heck it's like listening to people go on about wow vanilla like it gave mind-blowing head. I might not have been here for the original tli (at least I don't remember it breaking open my screen in a burst of golden light like it apparently was supposed too) but i'm pretty sure the human mind works the same and it was nowhere near as jewel-encrusted as people remember it to be.

There's thing's about the game I'd like to see different. But the RP is still every bit as fun as it was when I joined up, as long as that holds true what else really matters?

Perhaps it does sound depressing, and yes, to all of us 'Ancient's' (People of 10 years or so of Role-Play in this game.) now why is it depressing? Because a new generation came into this game, 7 years of age or so is a totally new way of kids being raised, new ideals and the like. So yes, it is a MASSIVE difference, am I saying the newer people are bad, Heck No! New blood is always nice. This place use to be hectic, chaotic, people would snag others and rape em or fight them, personally you would of loved it 100 times more crow since you like being a kitten of fighting brutality. We had no 'heroes' We had some drama, but 90% of it was literally in OOC. Only. Is it I see the past in rose-colored glasses? In truth no, since the majority of old people miss it, miss when a Necromancer would walk in the room and people even if they were higher level would back a way a bit or hide their disgust, and not walk up to some one like ShaKa and say, 'wanna fuck' if they did well yeah the character wouldn't walk for a while lol. People didn't wonder if they should go IC and role-play, am I innocent of offering, in truth no; but my inspiration has been on the down side for rp.


Alren, my friend, what happened is the same thing that happened three years ago give or take, far too much immature drama, and one action broke the camels back. The OOC has been closed twice now. TWICE, now why do I emphasis this? Most people seem to ignore the fact that this wasn't the first time I have stated it multiple times, I do not believe it was a month. Now back to what happened. The Ops gave three, THREE chances, the next day the people of the OOC broke All three in one day.

The thing I hate to say in truth, is that the OOC closing did increase role-play, most likely as a over reaction trying to get it to reopen. At times it has been desolate, when I check desdaemona, here is a good example:

Session Start: Thu Nov 29 18:34:45 2012
[18:34] <Desdaemona> Activity list (count of nicks): #The_Lonely_Inn (6), #TLI-arena (2), #TLI-town (2), #TLI-baths (1), #TLI-forest (2), #TLI-Magic (1), #TLI-Quest (1), #TLI-Temple (1), #TLI-Borderlands (1)

Session Start: Thu Nov 29 19:28:35 2012
[19:28] Session Ident: Desdaemona (Desdaemona@14055a93.6ca5ed96.184.107.imsk)
[19:28] <Desdaemona> Activity list (count of nicks): #The_Lonely_Inn (6), #TLI-arena (1), #TLI-town (1), #TLI-baths (3), #TLI-forest (6), #TLI-Magic (1), #TLI-Quest (2), #TLI-Temple (1), #TLI-Borderlands (3)

Session Start: Tue Dec 04 21:16:44 2012
[21:16] <Desdaemona> Activity list (count of nicks): #The_Lonely_Inn (10), #TLI-arena (3), #TLI-town (3), #TLI-baths (3), #TLI-forest (4), #TLI-Magic (2), #TLI-Quest (1), #TLI-Temple (2), #TLI-Borderlands (2)

Sure, the first one sucked, but around an hour later, the numbers nearly double. These are all Weekday checks. And that is pretty good. And the down side my friend, we could never see what they dealt with in pm or tli-ops channel and I am sure that held most if not all of the drama.

To Marren, Dear, the OOC is not the problem, hence why it was temp closing and looked at in a month. It was because of the players within who oozed the drama, I know many channels still open with an OOC, and I go back once in a while, and their OOC has 30-40 members in it with no qualms or drama. Now, am I blaming anyone in particular? No, am I saying we all are innocent? To a point even I am sure I annoy some of the ops with random questions I have, granted 90% of them are all TLI related lol. The OOC is never the problem, if you notice people stopped the drama questions and the like the moment OOC closed down, all the Ops are having a bit of a spa month, they still help, the thing is at first and still I am sure many blame the Ops, are they all innocent? Probably not, but they ARE human they need breaks they need to relax, and that I kind of liked the idea of taking breaks and the like for them or they could just remove the @ for a while so we don't ask them questions unless they are the only one on. But what is easier? We all grow the hell up, and go dive ooc, rape, abuse and squash all heroes unless they have the might to make their way right. Granted I am not saying your acting heroish STAB, lol. And all those rules are because of the generations, and as above said people trying to exploit the rules, and other things to become the most powerful, thankfully I know them all and the number is VERY VERY small.

[L`aquera]

What 'if' none of your thoughts of why the OOC room was closed, are correct? They aren't. I should know! SB would know! Those I spoke with know. If you weren't among those I spoke with, I told you in this blasted long ass thread, why.

If you don't believe those reasons, thats your problem. As some of you have already shown, only your thoughts matter. Not what is actual fact. Again, that isn't my problem. I'm starting to think with all these boo hoo threads and this is all your fault not ours posts, that maybe we are far better off without an OOC altogether. Then you can have a life time of nail biting bitch fests all you like. THERE IS NO DRAMA in tli.

Know why? Because there is no OOC room. All people have is IC. YES statistically there is more playing. I don't actually care if anyone wants to see it or not. All the Ops have to do, is HELP People with IC issues. With Quests. With thoughts. With being a newbie. And I've enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm not taking more then half my time daily fielding hatred on other players or fit throwing tempers because someone didn't like what was said in their pm from an Op. Or whining. Or crying. Its been a rather pleasing experience.

There are OTHER ooc rooms out there to go yap, share links, cuddle nuzzle, complain.. yadda yadda.. SO then, if you have those, what exactly do you need the OOC room of TLI for? Don't you already have a few? Yes, you have quite a few! A few people generously opened their doors and said they'd deal with the drama. I think, in some manner, that is best. Then you can govern yourselves. Make your OWN ooc rules up. Deal with each others bad and good days. You don't have the Ops to blame anymore for what happens in an OOC room. Just each other. And yet...... you are still doing so? Really? No. Not all of you. Some of you are finally grasping just how difficult a time it was.

I know of three players that were generous and kind enough to open an OOC room for anyone that came in, all you have to do is follow 'their' rules. Naidra, Krys and Adonai. Do a /whois on them. From what I understand, these three have had the most success and seem to be the most level headed and kind hearted. Its more then I would have offered.

I'll be honest. Every time I see posts like crows, Alrens and Ishtoris? I think, don't ya'll know that kind of attitude only sparks the same? We've always said, players make the rules. The day folks realize that and stop taking the idiot pill, well, maybe things will be normal but at this point, I'm ready to shut down the OOC for another month atop the one you already have. Why? Because frankly, if that much poison is still loitering about over something you STILL HAVE.. then its going to leak right back in. And I for one will not subject myself and the ops to it. Grasp that clue. And if you can't? Go elsewhere for an OOC. I used to own a lot of good will. Now.. my will owns nothing good.