Skill points and item creation

[Samson Artimus]

Hello, Samson here again with another little debate Id like to open up. THe perverbial can of worms. Ive noticed a few things with the skill system in this game. Honestly let me start out and saying that Im on board with about all of it. Ya know the skills are ballanced and well rounded so I have no qualms, expecially with the general skills. Now the other skills which involve item creation I do. I would really like to see a way where someone could create items outside of the shops or at a point where the price would be discounted. After all labor is a good bit of the charge from what I gather. Now as I continue I will state that I dont think that people should be able to make and sell them to just make a profit. After all I understand that the buisness's still need to get into the coinage and if you got freelancers out there making em for the cheaps that kinda ruins the buisness in the game. Let me start by saying I in no way want this. What Im saying is perhaps allowing people to make these sort of things on there own, for the character that created them only. An example would be.. Samson makes a Mithril scimitar, samson uses it. That would be samsons, he couldnt sell it to someone else, he couldnt just give it to a friend. Its kinda like an item locked to that one character only. Now I will aslo say that I dont think this should go towards enchanting. Thats opening up a hell of a can of worms far more then what I want to do or debate with this.. Im just wanting a way to actualy effectively use are vital skill points considering we only get one per level. This is just my openion of course and Id really like to hear others openions on it down below, and by that I mean both ops, dev teams, and other players considering if this happens it could effect everyone. Also if someone doesnt agree with this exact way but still feel the way I do please put your sugjestions into the box as well. I mean what can a little debating hurt? Either way I look forward to hearing from others.

[Miss Magical]

I think a Major issue with anything that is just "you get this skill then you can make these items entirely on your own" is the fear of it being abused. Now, I would imagine that if you're going about it the right way, talking to the OPs and Store Managers OOCly and if you have the right mentality about it all, that something could be arranged without hurting the current system that helps funnel people to things and prevents silly prices and the like.

[Ishtori]

I think you're not really looking at things that well Samson. First you don't get to make an item every day to sell and second you don't gain much profit from it, third you're depending on buyers and last but not least, you are doing monologs for it.

As Sut already pointed it out on another thread, no one is really exploring it and well, it is only normal when you end up doing hours and hours of monologing to craft something for a minor profit and that even assumes you have a costumer which will buy the said item cause you will not spend money forging a mithril sword so that no one comes and buy it after. That's money spent and no income return. First someone orders it and then you craft it for a minor profit. Also note that most characters that buy such items are relativelly low level as higher levels will already have the equipment they want. That means that for the small difference in price usually they just prefer to buy the stuff from the MMR and not have to wait than simply wait for the crafting.

Also note that if you made change things so that you can only craft things for yourself and they can't even be enchanted, then why the hell would you want them in the first place? I don't know about you but my warlord would not want an inferior sword that cannot be enchanted.

I hope this enlightens you a little about crafting items. It's not that profitable really and the hours of monolog vs profit are not worth for almost all players. That's how it stands now. Will it be changed for better or worse? I don't know but in time we'll see. For now at least that's how it goes. You can try starting to invest in skills towards forging but you'll end up noticing what I told you so far.

[Avarwraith]

Well most of the items that are restricted to "Can only be used in conjunction with working in x store" are things that are game changers. Why should x person have to save up and spend x mehrials and you just get it for free? Because you just threw points into the right thing?

Now, as for the rest, I know that there have been people in the past who have had the proper skills and who have created their own weapons. However, they still had to pay the MMR the proper amount in order to get that item in their inventory, ICly, this was explained as 'buying the materials'. After all, most of this stuff does not just appear before you, just because you have the metalsmithing skill doesn't mean you can pull steel and mithril out of your pants whenever you want.

Let us take the skill that allows you to make poison. Poisons are a rather expensive part of the game, and they can potentially be a game changer for a lot of people. It wouldn't be fair to anyone if person x could just make poisons without the limiting cost of out-of-pocket mehrials.

You say enchanting is pretty understandably something that can't just be done on a whim, but I don't see much difference between enchanting and being able to make unlimited poisons, or being able to make weapons appear out of nowhere. They're all things that affect the mechanics of the game. Thus they are all things that you're going to have to put in the time and mehrials to see happen.

[Ishtori]

Avar, I never said that you should get things for free. I merelly explained to Samson that as it is, crafting items isn't really worth people's time of monologing (unless they like to monolog which I doubt, but to each it's own).

Yes you have to buy the materials to create things, I don't complain about the low profit, I actually think it makes sence otherwise as Samson pointed out, if there was a good profit the stores would go out of buisness! What I mean is that for this to actually work there should be a way for it to generate more RP other than monologing.

[Lloathe]

One can also think of it this way:
The MMR, NB, and the like do not operate on the principle of Supply and Demand. This is a realm where each shop is controlled by th Emperor. Now, the Emperor seems quite the easy-going fellow allowing anyone to buy military-grade weapons. Is it so far outside believability to say that he would control the supplies to make things? The raw materials that his merchants bring in? Remember, this is a Monarchy, a Feudal government, not a democracy. The Emperor has no need to worry about being re-elected, and thus does not have to care whether someone can make their own stuff or not. In fact, it is in his best interests not to care. By monopolizing the supplies he controls their flow, as well as the tax revenue generated by the import of the supplies.
Now, imagine all of this. Tell me, would the Emperor -really- appreciate someone undercutting the prices on his shops?

Thats one way to justify this in-game. How many more can everyone else come up with?

[Avarwraith]

Ishtori, I couldn't read your whole post, but I also wasn't addressing the same issues. I was addressing the original poster's question (which didn't seem to have much to do with profiting off of it, so much as being able to do it for himself) and answered that. Really I was just expanding upon Miss Magical's post, which was very well constructed.

[L`aquera]

*gives Avar a gold star* I too enjoyed Miss Magicals explanation, well thought out, well executed. Have a read over it again or baring that, I've found her quite a good listener on IRC as well

[Samson Artimus]

All these are good answers but Im just saying. Why have a skill in which you cannot truely use? I mean its pretty pointless on both an rp and statistical standpoint to be able to do it and not be able to at the same time. Lets take poisons sence it was a nice example. There expensive, yes, but the ingrediants can actually be found growing in nature by a well trained alchemist. Furthermore. True, its an empire but who said that everyone WOULD obey his word? There are theifs, there are generally bad guys that would [of course still limited to some way oocly] make these things and say to hell with the empires rules. IF not crime wouldnt exist and the Imperial gaurd wouldnt be worth much now would they? lol. Just bringing that up as well for a plot that might be fun . Either way though Materials arent exclusive by any means. PEople can still find materials outside of a shop. True it would be long, tidius rp but some people that have a good deal of coinage issues might not have any other way untill like.. a year in the game rping before they have the coin to buy these thigns outright, expecially mages. Im learning on seth that buying spells is a pill. lol

[Zaira]

Why have a skill in which you cannot truely use? I mean its pretty pointless on both an rp and statistical standpoint to be able to do it and not be able to at the same time.

If the skills do not do what you desire them to, perhaps the point of them is different from what you see them as. I'll elaborate; The point of most ranked item creation skills are to be used in tandem with a shop (who often have facilities that player characters either do not have, or will not be able to easily afford). The point of the ranked item creation skills are not for creating your own items, but to mark the progress of your character learning a trade (usually under another - usually in a shop setting), and providing a financial benefit for learning the trade they are employed within. (Mechanically not pointless, as most shops offer a pay increase for those skilled in relevant areas). And finally, as I am learning, becoming a Master of a skill set at 20 or lower takes work and sacrifice, marking it as a point of pride or prestige.

There expensive, yes, but the ingrediants can actually be found growing in nature by a well trained alchemist.

If we start down this path, one could argue that the ingredients could be found growing in nature by one that has looked up drawings of the plants, making the skill moot. But, even if a well trained alchemist can find and locate the ingredients needed, they are still lacking in the facilities that the Silent Embrace has.

True, its an empire but who said that everyone WOULD obey his word? There are theifs, there are generally bad guys that would [of course still limited to some way oocly] make these things and say to hell with the empires rules. IF not crime wouldnt exist and the Imperial gaurd wouldnt be worth much now would they? lol. Just bringing that up as well for a plot that might be fun .

That does sound like it could be fun, just remember that the empire isn't exactly overly concerned about being 'fair' in punishments.

...but some people that have a good deal of coinage issues might not have any other way untill like.. a year in the game rping before they have the coin to buy these thigns outright...

Skill points are based off of level, a character is awarded 100 mhl per level (or more, if it is a significant level), to achieve a point in which some mastery of a skill is had (to be able to craft an item that one would usually buy) I would assume the character would have the option of saving a fair bit of coin. Now, if the character started off as a Master rank in a skill group (thus being level 1 and able to make things), then they should find work within a shop that uses the skill and benefit from the pay increase (making the progression of coin even faster). If you have to wait a year for something for your character, the character is either not working hard enough, or you desire something for your character that is beyond your current reach (expecting to be able to gear up in mithril at level 5, for example).

Zaira still suffers from moments of not having much coins - but that is because she has 1 job out of a possible three, does not do a lot of freelance work, does not go on many quests (time issues), tips big/gives expansive gifts, and has not bothered her friends for a loan of coin. There are many paths to earning coin, using skills in the way they are meant to (in shops) is going to be more rewarding in both roleplay, and in terms of earnings.

[Aramis]

I'm really not sure where the idea that you don't make money from freelancing is coming from. Granted, you have to have people who seek you out and hire you, but if you're willing to cut into your profit margin a little, you can undercut the imperial shops and gain business that way. Granted, I wouldn't do it too much, or you'll draw unwanted attention, but it's good for initially getting your name out there.

For example, my character, Aramis is a master jewelcrafter. Someone comes up to him and asks him to make a platinum ring, that has an exceptional ruby, sapphire, emerald, and diamond each on it. I price what it would cost to buy one from the GS, and total it up to 285 mhls. (100 for the platinum ring, 185 for the gems) To get my materials cost, I multiply that by 0.4 and come out with 114 mhls. Then I RP out the crafting of the ring, over the next week or so, multiple sessions of crafting RP (which nets me XP, as well). I contact my client and inform them that their ring is ready. I can charge anywhere from 115 mhls up to 285 mhls for that ring and still make a profit. Since I've done business with the client before, I'm not worried about cutting too much into my profit margin, so I give them a 10 mhl discount and charge them 275 mhls, and make a net profit of 161 mhls.

Assuming I don't have the tools on hand (which is a 1 time cost, by the way, unless you're renting them), I would buy them before I started (buying both the Basic and Advanced Jeweler's Kit costs me 50 mhls in total), and still make a profit of 111 mhls.

For about a week's work, that's not bad money. That's on top of whatever other jobs I have.