Monk Vow of Poverty

[crow]

Exactly what can and cant a monk own?
So I was hoping to finally get a definitive answer to this question, though I freely admit the only reason I have not gotten one in the past is because I've been to lazy to write a post about it on the forum, no more!

First of all here is the actual wording:

Vow of Poverty
Monks will eschew any form of wealth or any item of value. The two exceptions are wooden weapons, which they may have one of for self defense purposes and (special magical items, i.e. relics and the like). They will however take money they make and donate it to either a faith or a cause in which they believe strongly. Money may not be given to another character, but may be subbed to donate to a cause, with a witness of an Op.

What I would like to know is just what and when is something considered wealth or valuable? To go with some specific examples to help narrow this thing down.
1. How much money can a monk have before it is considered wealth?
2a. How much mhl can an item be worth before it is considered of value?
2b. do we count this per item or the total of items? (like, a pet is 50mhl, but having 4 pets the monk would have 400mhl in possessions.)
3a. How do enchants count into this, would enchanting an item increase its value? Is the enchant itself value?
3b. How do enchanted tattoos work with this?
3c. Would you as a monk be able to have for example a dildo with a soft vibrate and cold enchant?
3d. What about enchants like focus?
3e. What about defensive enchants?
4. They are approved as having A class armor how does that interact with poverty?
5. does the defintion of value change per level? (as what is a great deal of value to a lvl 5 may be peanuts to a level 50 etc)

Thats all I can think of right now thanks for your attention ^^

[Ishtori]

It is in fact a good question. I don't even think this penalty is appropriate for TLI, at least not with the restrictions it implies. It's a bit like the warlord penalty that forbids them from using magic in exchange for absolutly nothing... Still things are being reviewed and changed which means such penalties will hopefully be changed for something lesser or given something in exchange that will make it more acceptable.

Still it's a good question while such changes don't come into light.

[Miss Magical]

I think that, like so many other things, this is something probably best left open to the IC interpretation of the character. A monk will never own anything he considers "valuable" save his wooden, defensive weapon and other special items he might have run into. A monk will not seek to gain wealth, and will instead contribute any "wealth" he gets to a cause he believes in. Those are the strict definitions: a monk will never think that they are rich in any way, and if they do then they will make efforts to return to a normal way-of-life.

Now, whether or not the Monk thinks that a home makes him "rich" or "wealthy" is up to him or her. If they think 100 mhl for food or some such is wealth, then that is up to you. A monk who was formerly from a rich family might consider value much differently than a monk from a poorer background.

Leave it up to the player, I say, and let yourself role-play a mentality none of us have: extreme thriftiness and charity. Honestly, the question about the dildo, if it were my monk, would likely be irrelevant because my monk likely would think such an item abhorrent. Your monk might think differently, and really isn't that okay?

[crow]

I think that, like so many other things, this is something probably best left open to the IC interpretation of the character. A monk will never own anything he considers "valuable" save his wooden, defensive weapon and other special items he might have run into. A monk will not seek to gain wealth, and will instead contribute any "wealth" he gets to a cause he believes in. Those are the strict definitions: a monk will never think that they are rich in any way, and if they do then they will make efforts to return to a normal way-of-life.

Now, whether or not the Monk thinks that a home makes him "rich" or "wealthy" is up to him or her. If they think 100 mhl for food or some such is wealth, then that is up to you. A monk who was formerly from a rich family might consider value much differently than a monk from a poorer background.

Leave it up to the player, I say, and let yourself role-play a mentality none of us have: extreme thriftiness and charity. Honestly, the question about the dildo, if it were my monk, would likely be irrelevant because my monk likely would think such an item abhorrent. Your monk might think differently, and really isn't that okay?

I like the way you see this, a very cool idea.
What I wonder though is whether this is really the case and I hope we can get some official answers in.

[L`aquera]

1. How much money can a monk have before it is considered wealth? Once upon a time this very same question was brought to the Ops, the ruling hasn't changed. 150 to be consistant in both hand and bank, that means, no matter what, 150 adding up to what you have ON hand and whats in the bank, not 150 in the bank and a 150 on hand. Why? For clothing, food, pay for an Inn room

2a. How much mhl can an item be worth before it is considered of value? A wooden weapon is not that valuable, as far as I know and will stick with her, no enchants. This is rather self explanatory.

2b. do we count this per item or the total of items? (like, a pet is 50mhl, but having 4 pets the monk would have 400mhl in possessions.)I really don't think a 'pet' should be considered wealth unless of course you are speaking the value of raising cows and sheep, then that's a no. A pet would be a dog, a cat, a familiar is in its own category and still not considered 'wealth'.

3a. How do enchants count into this, would enchanting an item increase its value? Is the enchant itself value?Yes it would increase its wealth. This too is self explanatory.

3b. How do enchanted tattoos work with this?See above.

3c. Would you as a monk be able to have for example a dildo with a soft vibrate and cold enchant?Why would you?

3d. What about enchants like focus?Focus for what? You're a monk, not a spell wielder. Self explanatory.

3e. What about defensive enchants?Read the write up, it rather explains this one.

4. They are approved as having A class armor how does that interact with poverty?It doesn't.

5. does the defintion of value change per level? (as what is a great deal of value to a lvl 5 may be peanuts to a level 50 etc)No.

[crow]

Hey L, thanks for the answers that is exactly what I was looking for.
Some of them I just would like to get further clarity on.

2a. How much mhl can an item be worth before it is considered of value? A wooden weapon is not that valuable, as far as I know and will stick with her, no enchants. This is rather self explanatory.

I don’t understand what you mean by ‘stick with her’ also you did not specify any kind of value, if it was self explanatory I wouldn’t be asking.

2b. do we count this per item or the total of items? (like, a pet is 50mhl, but having 4 pets the monk would have 400mhl in possessions.)I really don't think a 'pet' should be considered wealth unless of course you are speaking the value of raising cows and sheep, then that's a no. A pet would be a dog, a cat, a familiar is in its own category and still not considered 'wealth'.

Okay, thats good to know^^ but I meant to ask about a total of possessions. Like a wooden weapon can be 100mhl add to that say 100mhl in clothing. 100mhl in toys and say 100mhl healing potion. Totals to 400mhl Is it okay so long as each individual item is ‘worthless’ on its own?

3c. Would you as a monk be able to have for example a dildo with a soft vibrate and cold enchant?Why would you?

Why would a person in Belariath would have a sex toy? Well..
The idea would be say 9mhl dildo 50mhl soft enchant totals to less then 60mhl

[crow]

*bumps and hopes to get some of this stuf cleared up yet. Self explanitory really isnt something to leave up to mischivious kittens. *

[Stormbringer]

@Ishtori - why would a restriction need to be balanced by a benefit? What a narrow attitude to have. Restrictions are often placed both to enhance the relevance of a race or class, and also to provide the player with an appropriate mindset and/or challenge to their roleplaying. It isn't all about stats and power and 'what's in it for me' and if you think it is you are missing the point completely.

As for the 'self explanatory' parts, well do we really want to get into giving monks a detailed inventory of what they can own? Maybe institute the Monk Police to search them for contraband possessions at random? Or is it better to leave it to the player to keep within the spirit of the class?

[Ishtori]

@Stormbringer - You may view it as a narrow minded attitude, I view it as a question of balance which has been the major problem with this game for years... It's not what's in for me. I make inputs on nearly everything I can and I don't belive I have all races or all classes in the game. I also play 2 classes which from a mechanical point of view in the game aren't worth much in combat. It's not stopping me from playing them is it?

However as far as game balance goes the beneficts a class gain have to be balanced with the penalties, exactly for a question of balance. No more, no less. Such penalties and beneficts can be made in order to fit into what the class is supposed to be, into their mind set, it's not hard at all. What is not fair is that some classes/races get some bonus/penalties, while others just get penalties or the bonus they get will not balance the penalties.

Also it's not combat abillities or bonus or penalties that will create a mindset for a specific class or race. That is what I'd call a narrow minded attitude. A class or race mindset is pretty much self explainatory by it's description, I don't belive a player will create a warlord for example and have him just toss spells around like a mad mage or anyone would create a monk and have him buy a castle and have douzens of slaves.

[Miss Magical]

I think SB's point, Ishtori, is that if you're playing this game for strictly-worded and hard enforced balance, especially on a class-by-class basis, then you're probably playing the wrong game. Belariath is a role-playing game for mature adults. You shouldn't need to be told a strict way of playing -- "Monks can only have 1000 mhl worth of goods PERIOD EVER NO MATTER WHAT ONE MHL OVER FUCK YOU PUNISHMENT!!" -- to play a concept correctly. Further, if the Staff of this free role-playing game are anything like the staff of other successful free role-playing games I've been on before, then they have neither the time, want, nor energy to strictly enforce a policy where they have to count up the value of a monk's equipment periodically just to see if they are playing right.

Remember, it's a mindset for a Monk. A Monk simply does not want valuable items, as he/she sees a better use for the money elsewhere, like a religion, or in feeding the poor, or... They can name it, and they can also play it.

If you think a player is going far outside the outline put forwards on the Class page, I'm sure a nicely-worded PM to an OP or an email to the admin team to the tune of, "Hey, I'm worried that Player X is stepping way outside of the monk concept because he just bought an extravagant piece of property and is now bragging about how he's going to throw a party there." Allow them to handle it, if they have to, and if it's you that you're worried about having too much stuff, err on the side of caution.

[L`aquera]

Lets bare in mind that monks, even by todays standards, own very little in the way of 'material' goods. But lets take a more technical view of what a 'vow of poverty' means.

Example One
The vow of poverty is not to be interpreted as being for ever poor, but rather to sharing everything in common. Those who embrace a vow of poverty do not claim private ownership of any possessions: everything they have is used for the common good of the Religious Order

In return for the services and any income of the participant, the Order provides the participant, and his/her dependents if necessary, with all their material needs. Depending upon the activities of the individual, this may extend to private housing, transportation when needed, food and clothing, healthcare and any other service needed to maintain physical, emotional and spiritual health.

Example Two
A vow, taken by members of some religious orders to renounce all personal property; everything they possess being used for the common good.

Example Three
(n.) Specifically, a promise of fidelity; a pledge of love or affection; as, the marriage vow.
(v. i.) To make a vow, or solemn promise.
(n.) To give, consecrate, or dedicate to God, or to some deity, by a solemn promise; to devote; to promise solemnly.
(n.) A solemn promise made to God, or to some deity; an act by which one consecrates or devotes himself, absolutely or conditionally, wholly or in part, for a longer or shorter time, to some act, service, or condition; a devotion of one's possessions; as, a baptismal vow; a vow of poverty.
(n.) To assert solemnly; to asseverate.

Example Four as found in the Monk write up
Vow of Poverty
Monks will eschew any form of wealth or any item of value. The two exceptions are wooden weapons, which they may have one of for self defense purposes and (special magical items, i.e. relics and the like). They will however take money they make and donate it to either a faith or a cause in which they believe strongly. Money may not be given to another character, but may be subbed to donate to a cause, with a witness of an Op.

Now for a bit of understanding as to why I say, self explanatory. Its not as if you've been locked in your parents basement all your life and were let out just a few months ago with money galore at your fingertips but nothing gained by 'knowledge' of the world. I'm very sure we've all heard the words 'Vow of poverty' 'restrictions' 'reality' and of course, 'interpretation'.

I'm not going to post here the wiki meaning to all those words. Go look them up. I think what bugs me the most about this place is that half the people thrive at the chance to find more and more knowledge by 'looking through the site and other avenues' to find information for "THEMSELVES" rather than asking questions. If they cannot find that information THEN they ask the questions, not usually the question themselves but rather "Hey, where can I find?" while others, ask the same blasted question as if the first answer either wasn't enough, they didn't agree with it, think they can circumvent the first answer or feel someone else might give them what they want as opposed to what is out there.

It took me five minutes to find the 'above definitions' for Vow of Poverty and to go to the website to find the Monk write up.

So..... when you wonder why we get frustrated when someone asks the same question time and again, now you know. While no one minds answering a question, we get a bit tired of answering the same questions time and again as if you either A: Forgot the answer those last couple of times or B: You wanted an answer that suited you and not what is out there.

So perhaps you can see some frustration when some questions are answered. Crow came to the Ops several times on THIS SAME QUESTION. Already. Maybe some of those rules changed! But I must say, that any changes that occur are put upon the website or announced by he Dev team/head of Dev, to keep YOU the players informed. It doesn't hurt you to 'find' that information.

Ishtori....... I'm rather put off at how you answered SB, whom is my husband and I happen to love very much, but is also the Channel owner. But maybe not as how you might think. So I will take a few more minutes to explain something.

WHILE this information has been given to Crow time and again and not just by one op, but by Ehlanna and SB before, there is something within TLI that has actually, never changed. And that is change itself. If you don't believe me, run amuck on the website and this board to see for yourself.

And while you are at it, go outside, get some sun, plant a tree, talk to your neighbor, find out how their jobs are going, their life. You'll find out its not perfect! GASP! I know right? They don't get an 'advantage' for every job, life, child, wife, husband, mail, car, house, animal, owned. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything in life, including as we've recently seen, in the Weather! They are not fair, they are not the same and they will never BE the same. This is human nature at its finest because EVEN human nature is advantageous and disadvantageous. And while this may come as a bit of a shock to you and its ok if you sit down while reading this, life, all life, is attempted to BE reflected in the game world here, in TLI. It is not perfect, some races and classes might appear to be better than your own. The whole The grass is Greener on the other side, theory. Which, in theory, might work for a whole day until you get to KNOW that grass a bit better. Than suddenly your grass doesn't seem so bad.

So what puts me off is the 'tone' that is coming across from you to someone that built this place, helps make it grow and keeps it going. My thought is if you are that blasted unhappy, go outside, mow your grass and take a look at your neighbors grass and get a better perspective and please by all means, take that negativity of yours and shove it into a jar and screw the lid on tight.

NO one is going to like EVERY thing about this place, just as they are not going to LIKE everything about their own life. Its LIFE.... if you haven't actually tasted it, time to do so.

[Ishtori]

Medoly I think you are the one who missed my point. I pretty much understood SB's point. My point is that the class affects the mindset, purelly background fashion, no more no less. If someone is abusing, yes a quiet discrete PM to an OP for them to check will deal.

Class bonus and penalties should be balanced for play, though monks are at example here, I do meant it as a far more wide coverage. Like warlords, warrior mages and so on. Some classes, like let's say, elemental mages, are well balanced in the term of what they gain and what they lose. This 3 above are not. I will admit, the bonus a monk gains is awesome, but the innabillity to have things just ruins a lot of RP. And do notice, I'm bitching that someone gets RP cut out in favor of some mechanics (we can see how bad the RP is cut by how many monks exist). If a class gain an RP bonus, he should have a balanced out RP penalty. If a class gains a mechanical bonus, it should have a balanced mechanical penalty. Again, the Elemental mages are the best guide line we have here. One RP bonus and one mechanical bonus against one RP penalty and one mechanical penalty and all balanced out.... What defines the class is not their bonus or penalties. Although they can add flavor, it's certainly not what defines their mindset.

I'm sorry if I get a little pissy sometimes, I do am trying to keep this in a constructive way.

PS: To L. Yes, life isn't fair. But this isn't life, this is a game and while it up to a point will reflect how life is/was, balance is a necessary element. Balance once again has always been the problem of this game. I know we all say, it's about the RP not the mechanics. But if the mechanics weren't needed, they wouldn't exist and if they exist. A balance must be found for them to work properly.

Also if we cannot accept that a monk in TLI simply means a spiritual warrior who doesn't really has to give up on his possissions. Then I'll just propose something much simpler. Change the class name from Monk to Martial Artist and we got a background problem that results in a very penalising RP penalty into allowing something more balanced to be created here.

[Miss Magical]

I'm not going to insult the original question of this topic, or the sensible answers L` or Stormbringer have given by voicing my response here to what you just said, Ishotori. You can see it in the Rant and Raves section later, though.

[crow]

Crow, if the above doesn't answer your question, then I must be missing your point and perhaps you could put down something that I might or SB might grasp on what you need answered. Hopefully, that is! I can't promise its an answer to your complete question. But we are trying.

Hey L,

Maybe I am just really bad at getting my case across. I'm not at all suggesting we should have the class disadvantages strickly reinforced by the IG (although..That would be some awesome rp )

I was only looking for a guideline that I could properly hold myself too. If at all possible expressed as an actual number. I mean ironicly what I was looking for is just something like medoly said in jest

You shouldn't need to be told a strict way of playing -- "Monks can only have 1000 mhl worth of goods PERIOD EVER NO MATTER WHAT ONE MHL OVER FUCK YOU PUNISHMENT!!" -- to play a concept correctly.

Except without the caps part, i'd be perfectly capable of holding myself to that so long as I understand the limit. My questions were aimed at getting an answer like that basically and clarifying what form that would take so I wouldnt do it wrong.

[Miss Magical]

I think the point that was trying to be made, Crow, is that there's not this arbitrary limit that a monk CANNOT go over, but rather that a monk should strive to possess as little as possible. I don't see the Monk sitting in his little stick-built hut with a calculator and frowning at his equipment going 'Whelp damn, two-hundred mehrial over my limit!' but, rather, will simply ask themselves if they 'need' this item to do what they have sworn to themselves to do. There are some rules that are enforced, like the wooden-stick-weapon-only rule, but other than that? Just play the concept, don't let the concept play you. If you abuse the concept, then there will be problems, but as long as you do a good job role-playing that your character scorns material possessions, you're good to go!