On the topic of money and jobs
![Post Post](./styles/ThorLarge/imageset/icon_post_target.gif)
So as not to go off-topic on that other thread I thought I should create a new one. And since it was my input that provoked the quoted post, I thought I should address it.
It is no secret that TLI has a massive runaway inflation problem. It is simply too easy to make money in the game. Yes, there are lots of people who are fine with it (their reasoning being essentially "so what, I get free money, yay!
" ), but it does cause severeal imbalance problems, not just mechanics-wise but RP-wise as well.
You see level 1 characters fighting with +20 or more DEF bonuses from armour and enchantments alone (in fact right now, the STR requirement is the only thing stopping everyone from carrying the best possible gear at level 1). It makes the existence of a thief class completely pointless (other than the interesting RP that happens when thieves get caught), as one can earn more in a day or bartending than from all the monthly shopstealing and pickpocketing combined, and with none of the drawbacks of being caught. Etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on.
We have essentially 2 problems at this moment:
1) A good number of characters are currently sitting on considerable amounts of money, to the point that money is not a concept they concern themselves with anymore.
2) Money keeps being flooded into the system every month, and so every month problem 1 gets worse.
Now as to how to deal with problem 1), I'd prefer a conservative approach TBH. It might be tempting to simply bulldozer the whole problem, as in:
It would be unfair to players to lose their earned profits just from bad timing, specially if it's associated with "harder to make money" changes. If it comes to that (and I'd advise against it), the limit should be set much higher, say something like 4000 or so. But get ready for probably the greatest shit-storm this MB has ever seen!![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Preventing characters from transferring money to each other is also not a solution, IMO, as there are many legitimate reasons why characters transfer money to each other. Bonded characters piling up to buy an estate, owners collecting the profits of their slaves' work (who said slaves should be just sex-toys?), characters (such as Traael and Callie currently) running their own private businesses and paying from their own pockets, or hiring others to work at their estates (farmers, gardeners, maids...) and paying them, characters wanting to reward one another for services provided, pickpocketing, slaver sales, private item sales, etc. It causes again a lot of problems, and doesn't really fix anything, because money passing around from one player to another is not the problem, money being ADDED into the game is the problem here.
So anything aimed at attempting to fix the current hoarded money problem should be done very carefully, IMO, if it should be done at all.
As for problem 2), this is IMO the main issue, and there are steps to fix it. The main issue really is that a character can work 1h at one job and get 400 mhl from mastering 4 skills, then go to the next job, work 1h, get another 400 mhl bonus (maybe even from the exact same skills as before), etc. all for their 7 or 8 jobs. OR login in the morning, leave the tag on while playing on the X-box and checking the channel every once in a while to see if customers come in, and have a nice 12 hour log, then repeat the next day, etc. OR they'll move all their regular RP to the shops and get paid for it - yes, there's a chance that you may be interrupted by a customer, but other than highly requested shops like the SS, the chances of this are small enough to be worth it. At the end of the month that can be a considerable amount of money.
Now, often players who do this are not deliberately abusing the system. The sequence of how this money-hoarding process happens can go on like this, for instance:
STEP 1: Players get a job because they need money for something specific they want, or for the RP it provides, or because they see it is highly demanded and no workers are ever around and so want to help their fellow players, etc.
STEP 2: Players get a second job for the reasons as above, and then a third, fourth, etc.
STEP 3: players level up and get free skills, and so if they don't have any RP skill they are interested in, they might as well get a skill that adds to their pay, because why not, if it's free?
STEP 4: Players eventually lose interest in RPing there as time goes on unless a worker is requested specifically, but the shop/job position has a requirement of 1h minimum work per month or they get fired. So they do that 1h even if they don't need to, and thus get the bonus from each one of these jobs as above.
STEP 5: ???
STEP 6: PROFIT!
And thus month after month money is being created out of thin air into players' accounts as a result.
How to fix this? Everyone will have their opinion, I'd suggest something like the following:
1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus.
Yes, mechanics wise, removing 240 mhl a year won't fix anything at all, it's peanuts really. RP wise, however, I never really understood where that money comes from, or who pays it. I mean, last time I checked, it's not like the Empire is some kind of welfare state where the government pays everyone a fixed stipend every month, is it? Money should be made from jobs, from stealing, from getting sponsors, blackmail, anything that requires actual IC mechanics rather than given from thin air just because.
(To compensate, I'd suggest slaver fees should be cut to 10 mhl a month, on par with regular slaves, but I may be biased on that one.
)
2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take.
This one is probably the most controversial. I'd sugest something like 3 store jobs (inn, baths and towers included here) and one noble house/IG job. Realistically, your character shouldn't be able to do more than this at a satisfactory level to an employer, really. Player-run businesses where money simply transfers from one player to the other rather than being created by the payout system should be exluded from this limit, obviously.
Yes, it might cause some shops to be less available, but if you're worried about that you can just have your other characters fill in for the other jobs. It would prevent a single character from hoarding a lot of jobs, and give you an excuse to bring out that lonely mermaid you have packed on a shelf collecting dust, so it's a win-win.
3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job.
Your character is employed for the shop for a particular job, and should be paid extra if they're extra good at it. But this way the bonus is limited to 100 mhl per skill, per job. I'd prefer if you weren't allowed to reuse the same skill for several different jobs, but I see logical reasons why people would disagree with that.
4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes.
This way, you shouldn't be able to simply log in for 12 hours a day and keep the computer on the side while doing something else, repeat the next day, and so on. I'd suggest a maximum payment of 100 mhl for 5 hours, again per job (150 on shops that pay 30 mhl an hour). There's nothing stopping you from doing more than this for RP reasons, or simply to help players who need a shop (and you'll still likely get tipped for it anyway), but you won't be able to hoard work hours and get paid massive amounts for it.
5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. (this one being a manager decision, I believe)
Say, you need to have a log at least once every 3 months to keep your position, rather than once a month as many shops currently do. Players may suddenly get sick and not be able to do a log that month, and not have a chance to warn about it, and thus will get fired the next month if the manager happens to be doing cleanup at the time. This lessens the tendency for players to create blank 1h logs every month for jobs they had no opportunity to RP in but are afraid of losing (to see what I mean, just log into the OOC room on the last day of the month and see how many people have their work tags on all at once).
I believe the system above is a fair compromise between, on one side, the very RP-limiting system we had before, and on the other, the "print free money" system we have now. It still allows you a good flexibility to pick your character's jobs. It still allows you to gain up to 480 mhl a month if you work 1h at each of your 4 jobs, or up to 800 mhl a month if you're willing to put on the hours for it. Which I think is quite fair. More payment than this would be too much IMO.
It won't of course deal with the problem of already hoarded money, but at least it will immediately prevent the problem from getting worse and worse every month. And it still allows new players (or just new characters) to be justly rewarded for the work they put in. As for the other problem, like I said, IMO any attempts to fix it (if any should be tried at all) should be done very carefully and avoiding any bulldozer strategy that can have irreversible consequences.
Thoughts?
L`aquera wrote:So.. for everyone, its super easy to spend that amount of mhl? Hmm.. Perhaps Farvel is correct. What we have is an influx of easy 'coin'/'cash' and that should be looked at. I have been kicking around thoughts about removing all coin except 500 and stopping the automatic pay of 20 mhl and the ability to give coin to anyone but a store. Perhaps this bears more merit as I thought it was silly and certainly folks weren't walking around with so much coin that 1300 mhl was easy breezy... Thank you. I'll take this into HC and we'll see what kind of work around we can use with this to much mhl floating around. Seems folks are bored.
It is no secret that TLI has a massive runaway inflation problem. It is simply too easy to make money in the game. Yes, there are lots of people who are fine with it (their reasoning being essentially "so what, I get free money, yay!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
You see level 1 characters fighting with +20 or more DEF bonuses from armour and enchantments alone (in fact right now, the STR requirement is the only thing stopping everyone from carrying the best possible gear at level 1). It makes the existence of a thief class completely pointless (other than the interesting RP that happens when thieves get caught), as one can earn more in a day or bartending than from all the monthly shopstealing and pickpocketing combined, and with none of the drawbacks of being caught. Etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on.
We have essentially 2 problems at this moment:
1) A good number of characters are currently sitting on considerable amounts of money, to the point that money is not a concept they concern themselves with anymore.
2) Money keeps being flooded into the system every month, and so every month problem 1 gets worse.
Now as to how to deal with problem 1), I'd prefer a conservative approach TBH. It might be tempting to simply bulldozer the whole problem, as in:
but that would cause problems of its own. It would be massively unfair to players who are currently saving money to buy an estate, gear, enchantments, etc. compared to players who already did spend that money (and had it removed from the system) but happened to do it the day before the purge happened, or in fact several months ago. The former get to keep what they paid for, the latter get to lose the money they were going to pay with.L`aquera wrote:I have been kicking around thoughts about removing all coin except 500
It would be unfair to players to lose their earned profits just from bad timing, specially if it's associated with "harder to make money" changes. If it comes to that (and I'd advise against it), the limit should be set much higher, say something like 4000 or so. But get ready for probably the greatest shit-storm this MB has ever seen!
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Preventing characters from transferring money to each other is also not a solution, IMO, as there are many legitimate reasons why characters transfer money to each other. Bonded characters piling up to buy an estate, owners collecting the profits of their slaves' work (who said slaves should be just sex-toys?), characters (such as Traael and Callie currently) running their own private businesses and paying from their own pockets, or hiring others to work at their estates (farmers, gardeners, maids...) and paying them, characters wanting to reward one another for services provided, pickpocketing, slaver sales, private item sales, etc. It causes again a lot of problems, and doesn't really fix anything, because money passing around from one player to another is not the problem, money being ADDED into the game is the problem here.
So anything aimed at attempting to fix the current hoarded money problem should be done very carefully, IMO, if it should be done at all.
As for problem 2), this is IMO the main issue, and there are steps to fix it. The main issue really is that a character can work 1h at one job and get 400 mhl from mastering 4 skills, then go to the next job, work 1h, get another 400 mhl bonus (maybe even from the exact same skills as before), etc. all for their 7 or 8 jobs. OR login in the morning, leave the tag on while playing on the X-box and checking the channel every once in a while to see if customers come in, and have a nice 12 hour log, then repeat the next day, etc. OR they'll move all their regular RP to the shops and get paid for it - yes, there's a chance that you may be interrupted by a customer, but other than highly requested shops like the SS, the chances of this are small enough to be worth it. At the end of the month that can be a considerable amount of money.
Now, often players who do this are not deliberately abusing the system. The sequence of how this money-hoarding process happens can go on like this, for instance:
STEP 1: Players get a job because they need money for something specific they want, or for the RP it provides, or because they see it is highly demanded and no workers are ever around and so want to help their fellow players, etc.
STEP 2: Players get a second job for the reasons as above, and then a third, fourth, etc.
STEP 3: players level up and get free skills, and so if they don't have any RP skill they are interested in, they might as well get a skill that adds to their pay, because why not, if it's free?
STEP 4: Players eventually lose interest in RPing there as time goes on unless a worker is requested specifically, but the shop/job position has a requirement of 1h minimum work per month or they get fired. So they do that 1h even if they don't need to, and thus get the bonus from each one of these jobs as above.
STEP 5: ???
STEP 6: PROFIT!
And thus month after month money is being created out of thin air into players' accounts as a result.
How to fix this? Everyone will have their opinion, I'd suggest something like the following:
1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus.
Yes, mechanics wise, removing 240 mhl a year won't fix anything at all, it's peanuts really. RP wise, however, I never really understood where that money comes from, or who pays it. I mean, last time I checked, it's not like the Empire is some kind of welfare state where the government pays everyone a fixed stipend every month, is it? Money should be made from jobs, from stealing, from getting sponsors, blackmail, anything that requires actual IC mechanics rather than given from thin air just because.
(To compensate, I'd suggest slaver fees should be cut to 10 mhl a month, on par with regular slaves, but I may be biased on that one.
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take.
This one is probably the most controversial. I'd sugest something like 3 store jobs (inn, baths and towers included here) and one noble house/IG job. Realistically, your character shouldn't be able to do more than this at a satisfactory level to an employer, really. Player-run businesses where money simply transfers from one player to the other rather than being created by the payout system should be exluded from this limit, obviously.
Yes, it might cause some shops to be less available, but if you're worried about that you can just have your other characters fill in for the other jobs. It would prevent a single character from hoarding a lot of jobs, and give you an excuse to bring out that lonely mermaid you have packed on a shelf collecting dust, so it's a win-win.
3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job.
Your character is employed for the shop for a particular job, and should be paid extra if they're extra good at it. But this way the bonus is limited to 100 mhl per skill, per job. I'd prefer if you weren't allowed to reuse the same skill for several different jobs, but I see logical reasons why people would disagree with that.
4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes.
This way, you shouldn't be able to simply log in for 12 hours a day and keep the computer on the side while doing something else, repeat the next day, and so on. I'd suggest a maximum payment of 100 mhl for 5 hours, again per job (150 on shops that pay 30 mhl an hour). There's nothing stopping you from doing more than this for RP reasons, or simply to help players who need a shop (and you'll still likely get tipped for it anyway), but you won't be able to hoard work hours and get paid massive amounts for it.
5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. (this one being a manager decision, I believe)
Say, you need to have a log at least once every 3 months to keep your position, rather than once a month as many shops currently do. Players may suddenly get sick and not be able to do a log that month, and not have a chance to warn about it, and thus will get fired the next month if the manager happens to be doing cleanup at the time. This lessens the tendency for players to create blank 1h logs every month for jobs they had no opportunity to RP in but are afraid of losing (to see what I mean, just log into the OOC room on the last day of the month and see how many people have their work tags on all at once).
I believe the system above is a fair compromise between, on one side, the very RP-limiting system we had before, and on the other, the "print free money" system we have now. It still allows you a good flexibility to pick your character's jobs. It still allows you to gain up to 480 mhl a month if you work 1h at each of your 4 jobs, or up to 800 mhl a month if you're willing to put on the hours for it. Which I think is quite fair. More payment than this would be too much IMO.
It won't of course deal with the problem of already hoarded money, but at least it will immediately prevent the problem from getting worse and worse every month. And it still allows new players (or just new characters) to be justly rewarded for the work they put in. As for the other problem, like I said, IMO any attempts to fix it (if any should be tried at all) should be done very carefully and avoiding any bulldozer strategy that can have irreversible consequences.
Thoughts?