On the topic of money and jobs

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On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Farvel on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:13 am

So as not to go off-topic on that other thread I thought I should create a new one. And since it was my input that provoked the quoted post, I thought I should address it.

L`aquera wrote:So.. for everyone, its super easy to spend that amount of mhl? Hmm.. Perhaps Farvel is correct. What we have is an influx of easy 'coin'/'cash' and that should be looked at. I have been kicking around thoughts about removing all coin except 500 and stopping the automatic pay of 20 mhl and the ability to give coin to anyone but a store. Perhaps this bears more merit as I thought it was silly and certainly folks weren't walking around with so much coin that 1300 mhl was easy breezy... Thank you. I'll take this into HC and we'll see what kind of work around we can use with this to much mhl floating around. Seems folks are bored.

It is no secret that TLI has a massive runaway inflation problem. It is simply too easy to make money in the game. Yes, there are lots of people who are fine with it (their reasoning being essentially "so what, I get free money, yay! :D " ), but it does cause severeal imbalance problems, not just mechanics-wise but RP-wise as well.

You see level 1 characters fighting with +20 or more DEF bonuses from armour and enchantments alone (in fact right now, the STR requirement is the only thing stopping everyone from carrying the best possible gear at level 1). It makes the existence of a thief class completely pointless (other than the interesting RP that happens when thieves get caught), as one can earn more in a day or bartending than from all the monthly shopstealing and pickpocketing combined, and with none of the drawbacks of being caught. Etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on.

We have essentially 2 problems at this moment:
1) A good number of characters are currently sitting on considerable amounts of money, to the point that money is not a concept they concern themselves with anymore.
2) Money keeps being flooded into the system every month, and so every month problem 1 gets worse.

Now as to how to deal with problem 1), I'd prefer a conservative approach TBH. It might be tempting to simply bulldozer the whole problem, as in:
L`aquera wrote:I have been kicking around thoughts about removing all coin except 500
but that would cause problems of its own. It would be massively unfair to players who are currently saving money to buy an estate, gear, enchantments, etc. compared to players who already did spend that money (and had it removed from the system) but happened to do it the day before the purge happened, or in fact several months ago. The former get to keep what they paid for, the latter get to lose the money they were going to pay with.
It would be unfair to players to lose their earned profits just from bad timing, specially if it's associated with "harder to make money" changes. If it comes to that (and I'd advise against it), the limit should be set much higher, say something like 4000 or so. But get ready for probably the greatest shit-storm this MB has ever seen! ;)

Preventing characters from transferring money to each other is also not a solution, IMO, as there are many legitimate reasons why characters transfer money to each other. Bonded characters piling up to buy an estate, owners collecting the profits of their slaves' work (who said slaves should be just sex-toys?), characters (such as Traael and Callie currently) running their own private businesses and paying from their own pockets, or hiring others to work at their estates (farmers, gardeners, maids...) and paying them, characters wanting to reward one another for services provided, pickpocketing, slaver sales, private item sales, etc. It causes again a lot of problems, and doesn't really fix anything, because money passing around from one player to another is not the problem, money being ADDED into the game is the problem here.

So anything aimed at attempting to fix the current hoarded money problem should be done very carefully, IMO, if it should be done at all.


As for problem 2), this is IMO the main issue, and there are steps to fix it. The main issue really is that a character can work 1h at one job and get 400 mhl from mastering 4 skills, then go to the next job, work 1h, get another 400 mhl bonus (maybe even from the exact same skills as before), etc. all for their 7 or 8 jobs. OR login in the morning, leave the tag on while playing on the X-box and checking the channel every once in a while to see if customers come in, and have a nice 12 hour log, then repeat the next day, etc. OR they'll move all their regular RP to the shops and get paid for it - yes, there's a chance that you may be interrupted by a customer, but other than highly requested shops like the SS, the chances of this are small enough to be worth it. At the end of the month that can be a considerable amount of money.

Now, often players who do this are not deliberately abusing the system. The sequence of how this money-hoarding process happens can go on like this, for instance:

STEP 1: Players get a job because they need money for something specific they want, or for the RP it provides, or because they see it is highly demanded and no workers are ever around and so want to help their fellow players, etc.
STEP 2: Players get a second job for the reasons as above, and then a third, fourth, etc.
STEP 3: players level up and get free skills, and so if they don't have any RP skill they are interested in, they might as well get a skill that adds to their pay, because why not, if it's free?
STEP 4: Players eventually lose interest in RPing there as time goes on unless a worker is requested specifically, but the shop/job position has a requirement of 1h minimum work per month or they get fired. So they do that 1h even if they don't need to, and thus get the bonus from each one of these jobs as above.
STEP 5: ???
STEP 6: PROFIT!

And thus month after month money is being created out of thin air into players' accounts as a result.

How to fix this? Everyone will have their opinion, I'd suggest something like the following:

1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus.

Yes, mechanics wise, removing 240 mhl a year won't fix anything at all, it's peanuts really. RP wise, however, I never really understood where that money comes from, or who pays it. I mean, last time I checked, it's not like the Empire is some kind of welfare state where the government pays everyone a fixed stipend every month, is it? Money should be made from jobs, from stealing, from getting sponsors, blackmail, anything that requires actual IC mechanics rather than given from thin air just because.

(To compensate, I'd suggest slaver fees should be cut to 10 mhl a month, on par with regular slaves, but I may be biased on that one. 8) )

2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take.

This one is probably the most controversial. I'd sugest something like 3 store jobs (inn, baths and towers included here) and one noble house/IG job. Realistically, your character shouldn't be able to do more than this at a satisfactory level to an employer, really. Player-run businesses where money simply transfers from one player to the other rather than being created by the payout system should be exluded from this limit, obviously.

Yes, it might cause some shops to be less available, but if you're worried about that you can just have your other characters fill in for the other jobs. It would prevent a single character from hoarding a lot of jobs, and give you an excuse to bring out that lonely mermaid you have packed on a shelf collecting dust, so it's a win-win.

3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job.

Your character is employed for the shop for a particular job, and should be paid extra if they're extra good at it. But this way the bonus is limited to 100 mhl per skill, per job. I'd prefer if you weren't allowed to reuse the same skill for several different jobs, but I see logical reasons why people would disagree with that.

4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes.

This way, you shouldn't be able to simply log in for 12 hours a day and keep the computer on the side while doing something else, repeat the next day, and so on. I'd suggest a maximum payment of 100 mhl for 5 hours, again per job (150 on shops that pay 30 mhl an hour). There's nothing stopping you from doing more than this for RP reasons, or simply to help players who need a shop (and you'll still likely get tipped for it anyway), but you won't be able to hoard work hours and get paid massive amounts for it.

5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. (this one being a manager decision, I believe)

Say, you need to have a log at least once every 3 months to keep your position, rather than once a month as many shops currently do. Players may suddenly get sick and not be able to do a log that month, and not have a chance to warn about it, and thus will get fired the next month if the manager happens to be doing cleanup at the time. This lessens the tendency for players to create blank 1h logs every month for jobs they had no opportunity to RP in but are afraid of losing (to see what I mean, just log into the OOC room on the last day of the month and see how many people have their work tags on all at once).


I believe the system above is a fair compromise between, on one side, the very RP-limiting system we had before, and on the other, the "print free money" system we have now. It still allows you a good flexibility to pick your character's jobs. It still allows you to gain up to 480 mhl a month if you work 1h at each of your 4 jobs, or up to 800 mhl a month if you're willing to put on the hours for it. Which I think is quite fair. More payment than this would be too much IMO.

It won't of course deal with the problem of already hoarded money, but at least it will immediately prevent the problem from getting worse and worse every month. And it still allows new players (or just new characters) to be justly rewarded for the work they put in. As for the other problem, like I said, IMO any attempts to fix it (if any should be tried at all) should be done very carefully and avoiding any bulldozer strategy that can have irreversible consequences.


Thoughts?
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby L`aquera on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:26 am

You're close to the issue I was broaching in Ops and gaining thoughts. Though, after listening to several players, it seems the ultimate culprit is possibly two things that, are easy enough to fix without, harming the mhl players have upon them now. And perhaps cultivating more role play and fun in the process.

I don't have any issue with the amount of mhl thats out there, I do have an issue with 'boredom'. And it shouldn't just be my issue, it should be everyones. It used to be fun to shop, now I see an endless barrage of "Can anyone open.." for hours. Its disconcerting. So.. a few things have come to mind.

1: Remove the Skills completely
1:A: Only a Master in Skills would earn you added coin of up to and no more then 50 mhl

2: Limit Jobs per Person, regardless of how many char. they have.
2:A: Limit jobs per char. no matter how many char. someone owns.

We also should not just have a handful of people manning all the jobs out there and lets face it, I could name them immediately without having to dredge my poor as it is, memory. Having a job and shopping used to be fun, that ended before the change to what we have now by over a year, people stopped working because there was an influx of money they didn't have to pretend to work and made managers and Ops alike frustrate and pull hair out just trying to keep people honest. Same system in place, different values of how much you get to make, more people to work said jobs, less influx. Work for what you want, but do it with some fun behind new beginnings in meeting folks, what might happen with that next customer... live a little. Take a chance.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Rebecca of Valaris on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:59 am

Favel,

Thank you for spending the time on a well thought out post. I don't agree with all of it for sure, but it was a well considered argument.

I'm up against the clock this morning so my initial thoughts will be sadly much simpler but wanted to get them down whilst I can.

In order:

1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus: I'd disagree with this one. It's a lifesaver when you're a casual player starting out, and allows for players that don't have jobs to still engage in the odd bit of slave owning, buy fresh knickers etc and the 20mhl isn't a problem with regards to the inflation issue so I'd leave well alone tbh.

2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take: Yep. Totes. You could argue that certain shop skills are transferable of course, but ultimately in RL it's hard to hold down more than one decent job so it seems odd that you can here. And as Farvel states elsewhere in his post, a bit of bouncing around between tags and you can really rake it in without a great deal of effort - which almost certainly a) isn't the intent and b) is the primary cause of runaway inflation.

3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job: I'm not entirely sure about limiting it to one skill. But certainly a bit of clamping down wouldn't go amiss. Again, let's say we have a casual player with a job who can spend only say two dozen hours here a month? Say four hours of logs at a max for them means that just one skill would really clamp down on the cash flow. Now I know that is rather the point, but we should be looking for a balance between ensuring sufficient cash to enable the larger items to be attainable and not just being able to buy a keep after a month if you can spend the hours here. Perhaps it should be variable depending upon the job in question? *hoists her vested interest flag in order to make full disclosure* So some jobs have more prestige than others IC. Becca for example is fairly high ranked with Sha-Ka's little gang (and quite rightly too! :wink: ) should she earn the same IC as a bar maid? Seems unlikely.

4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes. I take the point here, but the issue is less about the number of hours worked and more people not actively RPing the hours they have worked. In this case I'd disagree and suggest that it is the latter problem that is the issue on this point. After all if we are going to clamp down on skills and number of jobs, the money has to be made somehow (even if in a more appropriate manner)

5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. Sounds sensible to me. Again depends on the role of course. If it is a key or prestige role then no, you can't do this nor expect to be given a lot of grace, but for other jobs I don't see why not


As to L'aquera's points, I would broadly agree (sycophant that I am!) with points 1A and 2A.

Limiting jobs per person seems rather nugatory.(edit for clarity) A players characters can't pass cash between themselves and if someone enjoys shop RP then that allows for them to indulge and provide a service without any detrimental effects I would have thought. But aye, a job per character seems right.

On the skills point I'm rather more vague. It -feels- right that you would pay more for expertise so my instinct is that they should be retained, but perhaps a tightening down on either the number of skills applicable or the reward they receive is appropriate.

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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Twerlinger on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:10 am

How about going back to the system, or a variant we had a loong time ago.. with full time and part time jobs. Full time would allow for the base rate, plus skills pay. Part time would simply be the rate of pay per hour with no skill bonus. One full time job per character.. and as many part times as they want.

This would allow those who want to have multiple jobs to help out people, and those who enjoy the shop rp play to still be able to work it, just not raking in the coinage as much as they are, but still allow those who hold/have skills to get a little bonus from them.


You could, limit the amount of skills per shop that are applicable, or at least limit the skills that can give you a pay bonus, or cap the bonus to say 200 mhl extra for the full time job. Some jobs, have large applicable sets of skills, others don't.. and thats skewing where some people look for work for monetary reasons, so if it was simply.. all stores could give 200 mhl (as an example) for skills, it wouldn't matter if you had 2 master level skills, or 32.. all stores would have equality over that side of things - This would give 280 mhl per month at one full time job (For 4 hours worked), plus 80 per other job.. which would allow for some growth and ability for people to hold multiple positions, but not allow things to go mad with money all over the place.

1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus. - This would make people hunt to find work and would make sense in the long run, although some people who are here to have some fun and not rp out their 'jobs' as it were, would feel a little upset/alienated over it and wouldn't allow for progression as characters which could simply lead to stagnancy around the place. I'd say keep it, it gives people a little spare coin regardless of place or position to grant them the ability to grow their character, albeit slower compared to others.

2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take - This used to work in the past, till it got to the point that finding shop X became a pain in the backside. Given the size of the playerbase now, it might work better, but I think perhaps looking at other options *points to first part of post as an option* might work better.

3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job - Thats ok if you can police it easily, but it'll take managers having to look on the MB, working out who, what and where the skills are, and if you get one manager, or one person who has a blonde moment and can't find something, it could affect other things. Limiting the amount that skills can give on a job, and only one job with a bonus might be a better consideration.

4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes. - Whilst you'll end up with a few who are more than happy to work for no pay, most people will end up going..Oh.. hey.. my x hours are up.. not opening this store again till next month, which ends up potentially with us going back to the 'dark ages' as it were, of people asking in channel and never getting a store open.

5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. - Personally as a manager of 2 stores.. yes its managerial choice. I like to try and keep the employee list as close to whats active as possible so that people who look at the website for the list of who works what shop don't have a list of 10 to 15 people who haven't worked it in 2 months and are asking aimlessly around the place. But thats my choice on it.. I know in the past with other stores, I've looked for people, and the employee list I've been able to go over 90% of it and go.. not seen them in 6 months or so, which got depressing, hence why I try and keep it up to date. I don't have an issue hiring people again if I've let them go due to inactivity, I just feel its nicer to know who is working and actively around, rather than spending time looking for people. And to be honest, if we want to stop the simple 1 hour a month posts, we could simply go.. no pay unless you've done 4 hours or more per month (For a full time job).. none of the 20 mhl per hour plus skills.. which of course could lead to.. if you don't do your four hours per month, then skills aren't added. IE.. you only get the bonus if you do your full hours in a month, which would stop the 1 hour plus skill bonus brigade from raking in the coins.. but still allow people to do an hour here or there as life might let them

Please note.. this is not me suggesting that stores only have two applicable skills.. just that there is a limit on the bonus in some way.

Also.. removing the ability to give money to others.. this will hurt just so much in the game.. no tipping for jobs well done, no freelance workers making custom things for people..no ability to sell items no longer wanted without having to find the MMR or GS open.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby The Mercenary Abby on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:06 pm

I remember once bringing this up during the first several months when I first joined; I was either ignored or was assured that it was and would never be an issue, so I'm glad that it finally got picked up, especially if it means creating something more streamlined.
Twerlinger wrote:How about going back to the system, or a variant we had a loong time ago.. with full time and part time jobs. Full time would allow for the base rate, plus skills pay. Part time would simply be the rate of pay per hour with no skill bonus. One full time job per character.. and as many part times as they want.

I personally like this one, but also have been curious about how shops used to work many years back. ICly, as Rebecca brought up in this thread: it does not make sense that someone could hold several full-time jobs no matter how 'flexible' the work hours can be. Personally, though, I like this route since the change would affect my character the least ICly.

L`aquera wrote:2: Limit Jobs per Person, regardless of how many char. they have.
2:A: Limit jobs per char. no matter how many char. someone owns.

I remember bringing this worry up a long time ago (not sure where or to who, honestly) and was either ignored or just assured that it was and would never be a problem (as mentioned earlier), but I can definitely see why a limit should be put here. More importantly, I think it would make Tawny's job a whole lot easier keeping tracks of the payroll (not sure how many of us would be able to do what she does for how long she has been doing it).

Farvel wrote:4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes.

This way, you shouldn't be able to simply log in for 12 hours a day and keep the computer on the side while doing something else, repeat the next day, and so on. I'd suggest a maximum payment of 100 mhl for 5 hours, again per job (150 on shops that pay 30 mhl an hour). There's nothing stopping you from doing more than this for RP reasons, or simply to help players who need a shop (and you'll still likely get tipped for it anyway), but you won't be able to hoard work hours and get paid massive amounts for it.

I like this because it definitely encourages players to open the shops a whole lot more than just an hour a month. Say we go with 4 hours (the amount Managers or Assistant Managers need to do at MINIMUM every month to get their Manager/Assistant Manager Bonus), we can potentially see a player at least open the shop for an hour a week. Buuut...

Twerlinger wrote:Whilst you'll end up with a few who are more than happy to work for no pay, most people will end up going..Oh.. hey.. my x hours are up.. not opening this store again till next month, which ends up potentially with us going back to the 'dark ages' as it were, of people asking in channel and never getting a store open.

Let's not forget that we are talking about imaginary jobs and that people come here voluntarily; with that in mind, we can't really fault a lot of people who'd eventually think that way. And there isn't really a lot of ways to dissuade someone from feeling so.

But I think it'd be worth it if the changes mean a happier online roleplaying environment.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Tehya on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:11 pm

Yes, mechanics wise, removing 240 mhl a year won't fix anything at all, it's peanuts really. RP wise, however, I never really understood where that money comes from, or who pays it. I mean, last time I checked, it's not like the Empire is some kind of welfare state where the government pays everyone a fixed stipend every month, is it? Money should be made from jobs, from stealing, from getting sponsors, blackmail, anything that requires actual IC mechanics rather than given from thin air just because.


I wouldn't remove the 20 mhl because some people want to rp but not rp a job. Just to keep them with an income which is very little, but still will give them the chance of going to a store ect.

You could, limit the amount of skills per shop that are applicable, or at least limit the skills that can give you a pay bonus, or cap the bonus to say 200 mhl extra for the full time job. Some jobs, have large applicable sets of skills, others don't.. and thats skewing where some people look for work for monetary reasons, so if it was simply.. all stores could give 200 mhl (as an example) for skills, it wouldn't matter if you had 2 master level skills, or 32.. all stores would have equality over that side of things - This would give 280 mhl per month at one full time job (For 4 hours worked), plus 80 per other job.. which would allow for some growth and ability for people to hold multiple positions, but not allow things to go mad with money all over the place.


What I do think needs changing is working for a noble and being able to monologue rp and get paid. Personally I hate monologuing but it also seems a deterrent in creating opportunities to rp. They can just join a room, sit and watch TV or something and gain mhl. Nope don't like monologue rp and gaining mhl. So no pay for monologue RP. Scratch Skills, most everyone is a master of something and they can rp learning something while working, without having to have the skill. Skills scratched.

I wouldn't take people's money away that they earned. I know Tehya has saved hers to give at events which has been fun to do. I know not all people are generous, but having mhl to tip for a good song or dance, a mighty battle in story-line seems fun/fair. Those that are not generous could have other goals, jewels for their slaves, wives. It stirs up rp situations.

Maybe ask them to spend their own mhl for an event, quest giving them a goal to save their money?

Also even though this is fantasy we could have people pay taxes to the Emperor, and to make that easy... make April a no pay to all. In story-line it can stir up people's emotions in rp and their tithes would be paid.

A lot of the other ideas I like.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Serena on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:02 pm

Just wanted to add in on some of my thoughts without going into to much detail:

1- Remove the 20 mhl monthly bonus. - I do generally agree with the notion that one can gain a significant amount for merely one hour of work a month, and maybe not even really "do" anything during that hour. Maybe have a minimum amount of hours logged a month in order to gain the bonus if it's retained.

2- Limit the amount of jobs a character (not player) can take. - My char, Theressa, would be one that would be brought up in regards to that. Am thinking of giving up a few of her positions. Although..limiting the amount of jobs one can have could hinder availability of key shops. I am active enough to be able to open several key shops such as the REB, NB, GS and ISA (not a shop per se, but point remains). Some employees of shops are only available at certain times and may wish to do something other than opening a shop once logged in. Before taking the positions, I've seen many a request for various shops, which was a major factor for getting those positions for my character. I do it to be able to help others attain what is needed for their rp and for the general rp experience myself.

3- Limit the skill bonus to one skill per job. - Can generally agree with that.

4- Limit the amount of hours that are counted for payment purposes. - If a player is actually "working" at the position, I believe they should get the payment. Some of my actual shopping scenes have gone from one hour to several hours of actual rp work.

5- Loosen the requirement for shop workers to be considered inactive. - Nothing to add at the moment.

A comment made in OOC, generally asking why a player wants or even needs more mhl, brought on a response by myself of wanting to be able to attain such things as plot improvements, enchants, etc. All of which enhance rp for my char and those she rp's with. Also, having the ability for my char to be able to attain things for her girl, concubine, greatly enhance the rp of both of them and others that the player of the concubine may rp with. For those who have the "50K" mhl in one pocket and another "100K" in the bank, good for them. MHL would be meaningless in that regard but not for me as a player. A major SL for my char and other players that I rp with is each of them developing, establishing themselves, and growing within the Nanthalion community. Working the jobs.. and more importantly, being available to open a store for other chars can go a long way in helping others to develop their sl's.

I'm all for the rp aspect of that can come from working at a business...the actual selling of items and whatever else may arise during that time but i also do the jobs for the mhl attained that is to be used to develop my own char and others within her group, such as her concubine. I can't comment on any old system as I've only been here for nine months now but i have seen many times where a store is wanted with no one available or willing to open it at that time.

Edit: From what I've seen time to time, the large transfers/sub payments (many thousands of mhl), haven't been done by us lower level people, as we don't generally have that much accrued. I've seen those amounts being done by those that I've never seen working at any of the shops.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Tawny on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:54 am

I can give you some insight to the problems since as mentioned I do the payroll and have for a long while now. I see the problems and I am not going to name names but here is what I see every month.

1... Way too many skills used on certain jobs. A person works one hour and claims as much as 7 master skills in that hour. Now lets say this person is just a common worker making 20 per hour. In one hour they have made 720 mhl. If they work 3 jobs like that they make 2160 for 3 hours of work. Now even if they have learned those skills there is no way they are all used in one hour of work in any place.

2... Far too many jobs held by one char. When one Char is claiming work logs for as many as 8 jobs, Most with more than one master level ranked skill each then you have a char making over 3000 a month and not having to put in lot of hours anywhere to do so.

These are the two things I see that are lining pockets with alot of mhl and I tend to think the skills are really what caused this problem to begin with. People work lets say at the MMR. They open the shop and make a sale. They work one hour and close. They are mastered in Tending.. Metal Smithing, Mithril Smithing and leather working. For that one hour sale they claim all skills and their hourly wage. Great for the worker but really they are not using any of those skills except tending in that hour.

The skills were and are a great idea, however it seemed to have simply gotten out of control.There needs to be limits on who many skills can be claimed per job regardless of how many hours are claimed. As well as the amount of jobs a single char can hold down. I think these two things would go along way to helping with the problem of too much Mhl in the game.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Akaton on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:17 am

Ok im gonna chime in here. The skills being automatic are an issue. I mentioned it to L in a pm.

I had a suggestion but never heard anything from her on it. So ill post it here.

Change the skill payout. Not 20 per level automatically. Thats where its abused. Instead i say this. For each skill level in an applicable skill, using up to 5 skills. You make 1 mhl more per hour worked. For example me. At the HoF I have 5 mastered skills. So id make 45 mhl an hour. Doing this you may say people could make more than what they did with just the skills auto bonus. Yes after each hour worked after the first 20. As it would take 20 hours to make the same as the bonus for skills would have made them. This way would help have shops open for when people wanted them so it would cut back on all of the asking for shops in the OOC. As they are more likely to be open.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Infernis on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:13 am

I honestly don't see why we moved away from the 1 Fulltime Job / 1 Part-time job, with a monthly rate for putting in a certain numbers of hours per month.

This new system is obviously broken and being gamed by certain people to get rich while putting in minimal time.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Kooky on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:03 am

Just tossing in my ideas here. You guys know how many chars I have and how many jobs they tend to have. Personally, I don't get bored of the worklogs or the play it generates, and I like having coin to toss out for doing OP-approved mini-events and the like.


I love the idea of the full time/part time gig. I never saw it implemented, but it allows characters to still do what they want to and players to help out as they are able.

If not going with that idea, I could see allowing now more than THREE mastery of skills to be used per single job, including Tending. That leaves two actual skillsets of production means or otherwise mastery for a given task such as guarding. Right now, or last I knew, the limit was FIVE, which is too much.

I'd also recommend instead of 20mhl per skill, dropping it down to 5. I suggest this because going an all out 1mhl like Zully suggested does seem like far too much of a sudden, drastic cut. I would hope to see how other reduce methods work first, then implement more as needed.

I'd also hooope that characters will not be penalized on the job market for how many characters an individual player has. This is me speaking for mostly me here, but others too. As example, while my Lumio is a sculptor that works with clay and stone, my Loki is a sculptor that works with wax and candles. They're two different areas of profession and medium, but I enjoy doing both and especially worklogging with others doing such. Would that mean that either Loki or Lumio would have to lose a job due to the sudden limitation? I also don't knowingly toss my characters into problematic situations. So if someone needs the GS, but I have a character who is terrified of goblins (or rather a certain character), and they happen to be a goblin, I'd toss in another GS worker who happens to be okay with the race, so that I don't have to compromise my character's reactions, but can do what they need instead and best serve them.
If a player has # characters and # characters have jobs... why should they get removed from their jobs? Those characters need coin and realistically, would work for it. As long as the work is being done, and shops are opened, why would a person's characters matter? I could see it mattering if there were only x positions available somewhere, but that's not the case. I try to match characters with their desires and passions to fulfill their needs and likewise get good matches to do worklogs with other people for some wonderful scenes. I feel a player should only lose this ability if they're transferring coin or items to round about get them to someone else or another of their own characters.

People keep asking for shops because they are not being opened, or people keep missing those who do open them. I've seen people offer shops and then just two posts down, someone asks for one of the offered shops, if anyone can do it.. instead of replying to the person who -just- offered.

Another way to fix the issue is to have a minimum worktime of 2hrs instead of 1. Stretch it out. That forces characters to put in more time and be available for such. Or.. could have worklogs ONLY count (as far as shops go) if they post in their log that they either worked with another person or sold items to another. That would certainly have people opening the shops. Granted, I see shops open quite often and often offered.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Tehya on Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:44 pm

!. The more I read, I agree with Tawny. I'd just nix the skills for having a job

2. Stop monologue rp (please pretty please) to earn money. It's never set well with me since this is a rp game.

3. I agree with how hard it is to get a shop to open and know there are players with a generous heart that take on more shops than normal, so they can open them, get some rp but not so much to become millionaires. I wouldn't limit them to hours to work if that is what they enjoy.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Rebecca of Valaris on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:22 pm

I'd like to add/clarify my views a bit having read subsequent posts.

Totes concur with Teyha and Kooky on an end to mono. It could even be beneficial to getting shops open as the whip hand moves to the customer.

There is a downside in that it could make getting logs if you work for a noble harder to achieve. Conversely though it might encourage inter-house to so...who knows!

As a house employee myself I'd be up for taking the risk though.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Naomh on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:33 pm

And for the counter argument, how do you propose we put an end to monologue RP for money? Require an Op overseeing whenever someone does a work log to make certain they're RPing with someone?

Even if we went back to the old system of you're paid this much, expected to work this many hours to earn that pay, people are gonna monologue it now and again because sometimes you need to fill in the hours, or you wanna go IC and get something done at a specific place but no one else is willing to join in. Also sometimes jumping in for monologuing can lead to multiple people RP later without having to ping OOC 'anyone want to do a work log? anyone want to do a work log? anyone want to do a work log?'

The current system does need to be looked at, I agree, being able to monologue for days on end and get paid can feel like gaming the system, but it'll be near impossible to outright put a complete and total ban on monologuing work logs without punishing people a little too much.
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Re: On the topic of money and jobs

Postby Twerlinger on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 pm

Whilst mono-logging is an evil.. sadly its a necessary evil at times if people want to get their work logs in. We all have some form of R/L issue that can get in the way of being able to be on and around when others are that might require the shop.. removing mono-logging as an option for work logs means you end up punishing a lot of people who mono-log not to get their 'hours' in for extra pay, but simply who want to get something going icly to give people options and availablity, without having to resort to going.. Anyone want shop X, Y and Z. Personally I just go ic and open up a shop now and again.. yes its boring, yes some people don't like it.. but, at this is at least just me here, I don't always have the chance to be ic when the majority of other people are around. You take away the option to mono-log if/when needed, then it just becomes harder to run the hours for said shop. Maybe a limit perhaps.. but outright removal doesn't seem a good option
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