New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Questions and suggestions for new spells, changes to spells and the magic system

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New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:42 pm

Please refer here: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=16998

This is where to post any questions or comments. Please keep your commentary polite and we'll be sure to answer in kind. :)
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Infernis on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:52 am

1) With the combination of Nebula, Aurora, Magical Armor and Physical Armor spells, along with the +15 that you get from Defensive enchantments and basic armor defense, it's possible for a Magi to have +50 to their defense against any attack. Is this intended?

2) Beglordios' Breath affects up to an area of 45' in diameter centered on the Magi. Physical attackers are one thing, but how do we determine how far a Ranged attacker is, and whether or not that attacker is effected other than a rousing game of "You're in range and effected!" "I'm so not in range and not effected"? Secondly, would Cure the Senses cure this magical blindness or no? What constitutes an interruption? Damage taken or simply being attacked, successfully or otherwise?

3) Deceptive Winds: How far back is the target thrown? Does this spell work indoors?

4) Feathered Bow: This spell functions as a Ranged Physical Attack, but is defended with only Magical Defensive modifiers. Intended? Because, as it's written now, it basically functions as a Ranged Attack that treats all armor as if it doesn't exist, aside from Magical Armor modifiers.

Secondly, it has a +8 modifier at 15 slots. This is more powerful than even 2-handed weapons that require more than 30 STR to use effectively. The most powerful bow we have is the Elven Warbow, which takes 18 STR to use, and is a class C weapon. Magi can only access Class A,B weapons and armor. Intended for them to have this most powerful magical bow at lvl 10?

It ignores Physical armor and Physical Armor modifiers, is about as half as powerful as a ship Ballista bolt thrower, ignores weapon restriction and has no STR requirement to use. To my way of thinking, this spell is more powerful than most Relics.

5) Mystic's Trance: A +30% to all spells for for 3 turns? Would this apply a +30% to defensive spells? Or Feathered Bow, boosting that +8 bow up to a +10.5 bow?

6) Rainbow Wings functions as a defensive/offensive spell. In offensive mode, it functions as a Close 'Physical' Attack that again ignores Physical armor and Physical Armor modifiers, with an attack value of +8, again higher than anything short of a Crystal Sword. And Crystal Swords do not ignore Physical Armor and Physical Armor modifiers and require a STR of 26 to use, which this spell does not require.

7) Silenced Echo: Again, how do we determine if a Ranged Attacker is within the 45' diameter of the casted spell besides a back-and-forth game of 'is' and 'is not'? Will Cure the Senses cure the deafness of this attack?

8) Squeezing Sortilege: A whopping FIFTY % loss to Attack AND Defense for 5 rounds and it seems to be able to be able to be stacked with Silenced Echo and Beglordios' Breath resulting in a -105% to ALL defense rolls. At level 20.

9) Tether of The Stars: Two successful castings of this spell would end any magical fight, due to the ability to incapacitate a Mage's arms, negating any further castings on his part. Further, the spell's mechanics call for the Magi's INT to be rolled against the victim's STR, not exactly the average spell caster's favored stat.

10) Invisibility: Detectable by Detect Magic as well as Detect Illusion? Resistance roll is Magi's Int+AGI against the seeker's INT only? Intended?

The rest of mostly OOB and not badly designed. The combat spells, on the other hand, frighten me in how they can easily be stacked and combined to create situations where success against the Magi are all but impossible. They have spells that seemed designed solely to counter Physical classes like Warriors and they have other spells seemingly designed solely to counter Magical classes like Mages and Necromancers.

They seem to be working with a grab bag of some really good shit and if these spells go through as written, I'm pretty sure I'll be race-changing to Magi asap.


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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:14 am

Infy has valid points.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby miyuka on Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:46 pm

1)Nebula and aurora only stack with one another and defense enchantments it says so in the spell

2)We don't have an actual combat based measurement system, The given diameter is to that people understand that their spells don't get out of hand ("I blow up the town with my fireball!") for the sake of combat if the victim is able to shoot the caster the caster can AOE the victim.

3)Again with the ranged thing there's no given distance, it's up to the player since there's no actual range mechanic in the battle system (for instance I can go from ranged to close in one attack).

4)It seems that you are only focusing on the positives of this spell. This spell takes a turn to conjure up costing 16 stamina from the get go makes it so the magi cannot fly and it uses a ranphyatk which isn't exactly a magi's strongest roll (unless they decided to be strength based!). It also can be stopped by magical means. I could in essence use a ranged magic spell at 15 slots get a larger modifier and still bypass your armour and that's in one turn, not 2.

5)It says in the spell itself what this boosts: "This spell grants +2% to all close magic and ranged magic attack rolls per slot invested." Feathred bow uses at !ranphyatk so it would very much be unaffected by this

6)one, you have to cast it. two, it last all of three rounds. three it goes away after one use, four you have to wait three rounds before it can be cast again. five, it uses a clophyatk which is not a magi's strongest roll. So yes it may be as stong as a crystal sword (or close to it) but a crystal sword won't cost you 16 stamina to bring to bear and cost a turn and only last for three turns before it goes away nor go away after one use. However, this will go back to dev for further scrutiny just to be sure.

7)Same as number two on this list as far as ranged is concerned. Spell edited to reflect that it can be cured as well as sound less confusing. Good catch.


8 )There should have been a statement at the end of this spell: "Those affected by squeezing sortilege can not have their rolls further degraded by any more than 50% regardless of what spells are currently affecting them." That is now on the spell


9)Why yes, this spell is possibly good against a mage. It's just a slighty different version of Lightning Bind and honestly functions more like a stun bolt in the case of the opponent no longer getting to act. The caster cannot actually make any attacks whilst channeling this particular spell and the opponent does get some chances to either break the bond or just attack (granted with some negatives to said attack).

10) Detect magic doesn't work on illusion spells and will not work upon this spell. One would have to use detect illusion. The rolls are intended.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:11 pm

Tether of the Stars:
Level Required: 15
Class required: Magi
Race required: Magi
Casting method: ranmagatk
Defending method: ranmagdef
Description: Class Restrictions: Magi ::
Level: Magi X4 ::

There have been many who have stared up in awe as one of the ships of the Magi's navy floated silently overhead, floating on air as if it were water. The secret behind this phenomenon is a rigorously practiced spell known at the Tether of the Stars, that holds the ship up against gravity, tugging it along like some over-sized marionette. It takes teams of magi working in shifts to pilot their naval vessels, but a single magi can still use this spell to their advantage when the need strikes. It works by creating an invisible, magical anchor point that then links itself to a target of the magi's choosing, tugging it towards the anchor as if gravity itself has suddenly shifted directions.

MECHANICS:: This is a one turn cast spell, needing two free hands. A typical !ranmagatk vs. !ranmagdef is rolled costing the magi 1 stamina per slot used. If the Magi wins the roll, his opponent finds one of their limbs abruptly seized by an invisible force and dragged towards the magi's anchor. This deals no damage to the opponent, but effectively renders that appendage immobile for the purposes of spellcasting or combat, causing them to suffer appropriate penalties. The magi may cast a number anchor points equal to the number of times they have taken the magi class, each being able to target a single limb, but the neck is not a viable target. The captured target may attack or !evade as normal during their turn (though likely will be limited to ranged attacks) but are safe from the magi who cannot attack a bound opponent without breaking the concentration needed to maintain the spell. The captured may also elect to use their attack turn to try and rip free of the bonds, able to 'wager' up to 15 stamina in an attempt. Each stamina spent adds +1 to their strength for the purpose a Magi INT vs their STR roll. (So a person with 50 strength who spends 15 stamina would roll a 1d65 against the magi's 1dINT) Should they win they manage to wrestle free of the bonds, if not they have vainly wasted energy in the attempt. If a second limb is captured then their strength roll suffers a -10 penalty to the -result- of the roll. If three limbs are captured they suffer a -30 to the result of the roll and if all four limbs are able to be seized then they are completely at the Magi's mercy and no longer able to attempt escape or any other action.


vs.

Lightning Bind:
Level required: 10
Class required: Air Mage
Casting method: ranmagatk
Defending method: ranmagdef

Description: A potent spell often used to discipline a slave or to make a point without charring one's enemy, the Air Mage conjures bindings of energy that leap forward from his hands toward his enemy. Should the bindings successfully strike, a contest of wills begins. Even as the bindings take hold of his opponent, the Air Mage is unable to do anything more than concentrate on maintaining his grip on the trapped opponent. Any successful attack on the Air Mage dispels the Lightning Bind and will disorientate the Air mage so much at his opponent will find himself able to flee or attack whether the Air Mage wishes it or not. Continuing to hold the opponent in Lightning Bind is a draining thing for both the Air Mage and his opponent, though the Air Mage loses his strength so much slower than his opponent, obviously. It is possible to render someone unconscious from this spell, but no damage to their flesh is possible from overuse.

:MECHANICS: A standard Ranged Magical Attack and Defense is required, and should the opponent fail his roll, he is immediately caught and immediately begins to lose 1 point of Stamina for every slot of Lightning Bind that was expended in the Air Mage's attack. Each round thereafter, the opponent is allowed to roll another Ranged Magical Defense against the original Ranged Magical Attack, and should he succeed, he is immediately given the initiative in combat for whatever he chooses to do. The Air Mage himself loses 1 point of Stamina for every 3 slots of Lightning Bind expended in his original Attack roll, every round that he holds his opponent. Neither Air Mage nor opponent may roll to regain Stamina while this spell is in effect.



First off I'll say that when I originally looked at the spell I thought that Lightning bind had been moved to OOB use only, and.. was happy with that decision, but after peeking on the site see that it never took. IMHO Lightning bind is a bit cheap and overpowering in a fight, and I also feel that Tether of the stars is rather cheap as well if not more powerful then Lightning bind.

Here's why:

Effectively Lightning bind can take someone out of the fight with a single cast with a high enough roll. That's pretty cheap. Yes there are chances to resist it each round, but it doesn't give the person 'caught' in it any ability to fight back while they're imprisoned. That's just not fun for both parties. Leads to frustration, and any tactics either in ff or in dice play are really barred from the victom who can only just stand there.

Tether of the stars can effectively do the very same in two rounds to someone, but it's much.. much worse, and much more subtle.

On the first hit with it, the Magi had taken away 3/4 of their opponents attack options, their opponents can really only do MAGICAL ranged attacks. Why only magical? Well, how many people do you know that can notch an arrow and fire a bow with one arm?

So, Tether of the stars is a single hit KO to physical classes. The magi can just keep out of range and casting it again and again until all the stacks land that are needed for full incapacitation because unlike (the overpowered) Lightning bind, Magi can actually !evade while using Tether of the stars, meaning the stam upkeep associated with it (that's still less then Lightning bind) doesn't really matter. They can stay out of range, rest, have a coffe, then continue pew pewing while their opponent has no other option then just trying to escape.

Why the escape mechanic is flawed:

Even with Lightning bind (again let me stress that LB is in itself overpowered and should be restricted to OOB) the victim has the opportunity to roll using their magical resistance. Characters spend a lot of MHL getting magic resists and learning spells that would give bonus to defensive rolls.. but this trickily worded mechanic circumvents all of that. Tether of the stars doesn't care if you have 15 def enchants, it doesn't care that you have 15 ranks of magical armor up either.. it's just your str stat that you can roll to randomly save you. In short, once you're caught, it's HARDER to get out of it then any other spell in the game. Not to mention that you're using a class's primary stat (int) against a secondary stat to any other class in the game (str) Even warlords are going to likely have more AGI then STR because AGI helps with hitting and dodging.

In addition to this, once a second limb is bound the defender takes penalties to their STR roll making it even harder for them to escape, while the Magi has limitless chances to keep trying to stack the rest of tether of the stars. It doesn't matter that the magi can't cast any other spell without breaking tether of the stars.. they don't need to do that to win.

TLDR: to be fair, the escape mechanics need to be redone to something more fair that allows for a victom's defensive stats to be taken into account.


Synergy:

So, Tether of the stars can effectively shut all but mage's down with a single cast, turn anyone into target practice with just 2 applications and allow the magi casting it to just sit back and !evade at their leisure once their opponents arm's are bound. On top of that they are proposed to have access to a spell that will increase Tether of the stars attack rolls by 30% for 3 rounds...... ... one extra round put in there to make sure that they get that second hit in.



This is my first look over on the spell. I'm not on Dev, but do know that dev does take a lot of time to discuss these things. I hope that this gets a good look over and the concerns by players are addressed.

Also.. please push Lightning bind to oob only! that spell and shammys spirit armor and spirit barrier spells are far stronger then any LI in play.

Thank you for your time reading this, know it's a bit of a long post, and have a good weekend everyone.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Infernis on Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:21 pm

Rather than go into detail on most of those comments in that latest post, I just want to be sure I'm correct with the following example.

Cast Squeezing Sortilege. If it fails, cast again in the next round and every following round until it hits.

My opponent is now at -50% rolls for the next three rounds.

I then cast Mystic's Trance and gain +30% to all my rolls.

I then cast Tether of the Stars. My dice are rolled at 130% power and my opponent's dice are rolled at 50% power. Should I miraculously miss this roll, I have a third round with which to try again.

A Magi of at least lvl 5 can immobilize and defeat a caster with this single casting by targeting his arms and rendering all further castings impossible. A Magi of at least level 15 can immobilize any class by targeting all 4 limbs and rendering them completely immobile.

Now, just to be certain, with the spells written as they are, would I be able to do this?
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:48 pm

If you use Stun, you can't attack or fight back against the stun either. in that respect only, whats the difference between Stun and Lightning when you're caught?

Tether of the Stars is not unlike the Arcana Spell (I forgot the name) Arcane Bindings I think? The verbage is almost the same.

Stun keeps your opponent from attacking AT ALL and you CANNOT break out of it unless your opponent attacks you again.

Tether of the Stars, if used with a x4 Magi at full slots, basically does the same thing. You can't attack, but you can defend, your free once your hit again by your opponent. Though, if both hands are caught, you cannot cast any spells during your down time, unlike Stun Bolt, which, however you can try to break free with Tether.

In addition, if the Magi can only get one hand, you still have one hand free and if your smart your either a WaM who can cast one handedly, or you have a single-handed weapon that can swing where its needed.

The ability to 'wager' additional stamina to beat the Magi's INT roll to get free seems more on the side of the victim and, if it seems too confusing can always be cut out, as the ability to break a 'stun' effect is more than its Level 1 counterpart provides and may just be packing in too much than necessary.

So, anyways.

I can't see too much of a problem myself. Its long winded but its meant to mimic other binding spells in two other spheres. For most binding/stun spells, the victim will always be at a disadvantage. That's the point. Otherwise why have such a spell in any sphere. The victim however is not put at such a disadvantage that they become a punching bag, they gain the ability to break it, and in some cases, the Magi may either not win the initial attack roll or might only be able to bind one or two limbs at a time, leaving, if the victim is smart, an avenue to still fight back and land in some blows.

To be honest, if I had my way, which I don't all the time despite what some think, all binding spells of this capacity would be cut out from any sphere and we'd have just regular stun spell copies to satisfy the requisite need to put your opponent on the back burner while you hurry up and cast your buffing spells.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:00 pm

A Magi of at least lvl 5 can immobilize and defeat a caster with this single casting by targeting his arms and rendering all further castings impossible. A Magi of at least level 15 can immobilize any class by targeting all 4 limbs and rendering them completely immobile


If you cast the same spell three times in a row AND manage to hit successfully every time, then kudos to you. Your luck with the dice is outstanding.

and

Why are you casting a Level 15 spell at Level 5?

If you do cast at Level 15, and target all limbs, and win. You do make your opponent immobile. So what are you planning to do now?

You can't hurt them anymore. That would break the spell.

You can certainly take it to the back room. That would have required OOC consent from the other, and your plan to immobilize them was probably the plan from the beginning and both agreed.

Do you plan on stringing them up and leaving them to rot? I'm sure once you leave and all ties to the spell fall, such a plan might back fire once they are free and they can now hunt you back down and start this little dance again.

If its a contest for money, since your opponent isn't at 0 LIFE/0 STA, will the referee call it a win or tell you that you have to get your opponent to 0 life/0 stamina? It might be one incident where you're at an advantage there, otherwise, you're just left staring at the other person until someone decides to twitch, or, they successfully roll to break free.

If you have any other scenarios resulting from an immobile opponent that has unsuccessfully to roll free of the spell which would be woefully unfair (as opposed to just good combat tactic), please let us know and it will helpfully round out the argument a bit more.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:06 pm

If you use Stun, you can't attack or fight back against the stun either. in that respect only, whats the difference between Stun and Lightning when you're caught?


with stun you can cast illusions, personal buffs, you can remove the stun if you have access to cure the senses. In short, even if you are stunned, you can get out of it. Also *coughs* nerf Lightning Bind to oob. *added in* oh, and you can attempt to have your character escape while stunned, not with the other spells mentioned.

Tether of the Stars is not unlike the Arcana Spell (I forgot the name) Arcane Bindings I think? The verbage is almost the same.


Please move that to OOB as well.

Stun keeps your opponent from attacking AT ALL and you CANNOT break out of it unless your opponent attacks you again.

Yes, but if you continue to stun someone that's stunned 3 more times you don't win the fight outright.

In addition, if the Magi can only get one hand, you still have one hand free and if your smart your either a WaM who can cast one handedly, or you have a single-handed weapon that can swing where its needed.


Not all players want to play WaM or want to play with single handed weapons. Also, since the victim is pinned to an area, close attacks of any kind can be negated by the magi just stepping back out of reach ICly.

The ability to 'wager' additional stamina to beat the Magi's INT roll to get free seems more on the side of the victim and, if it seems too confusing can always be cut out, as the ability to break a 'stun' effect is more than its Level 1 counterpart provides and may just be packing in too much than necessary.

15 stam is a lot of stam to use. If it's a boon to the victims, why limit it at 15, why not leave it open ended so any amount of stam can be wagered to help in their STR roll, and allow them to !evade to get more back? That might be a way to try and fix a mechanic that otherwise overlooks defensive spells and enchantments after the original hit.

There's putting the victim at a disadvantage, and having one shot KO spells like this, Lightning Binding, and Arcaine shackles.

If you're genuinely looking for player feedback, the feedback given so far is that they still need to be worked on.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Infernis on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:08 pm

lyllamarie wrote:
A Magi of at least lvl 5 can immobilize and defeat a caster with this single casting by targeting his arms and rendering all further castings impossible. A Magi of at least level 15 can immobilize any class by targeting all 4 limbs and rendering them completely immobile


If you cast the same spell three times in a row AND manage to hit successfully every time, then kudos to you. Your luck with the dice is outstanding.

and

Why are you casting a Level 15 spell at Level 5?

If you do cast at Level 15, and target all limbs, and win. You do make your opponent immobile. So what are you planning to do now?

You can't hurt them anymore. That would break the spell.

You can certainly take it to the back room. That would have required OOC consent from the other, and your plan to immobilize them was probably the plan from the beginning and both agreed.

Do you plan on stringing them up and leaving them to rot? I'm sure once you leave and all ties to the spell fall, such a plan might back fire once they are free and they can now hunt you back down and start this little dance again.

If its a contest for money, since your opponent isn't at 0 LIFE/0 STA, will the referee call it a win or tell you that you have to get your opponent to 0 life/0 stamina? It might be one incident where you're at an advantage there, otherwise, you're just left staring at the other person until someone decides to twitch, or, they successfully roll to break free.

If you have any other scenarios resulting from an immobile opponent that has unsuccessfully to roll free of the spell which would be woefully unfair (as opposed to just good combat tactic), please let us know and it will helpfully round out the argument a bit more.


What you 'can' do is win the fight. You win, they're immobilized, they get tied up or down, mocked a bit and left on the ground.

If the opponent comes back again, then you can not only immobilize them again in the same way, but you can then kill them while they're immobilized. The rules say that attacking someone repeatedly is implied consent to a possible death, after all.

The spell combinations are awesome. For Magi. Not so much for everyone else.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:11 pm

You can't kill them while immobilized without having to first land a successful attack, and, should you attempt the blow, they are free of the spell and can defend at full strength.

If you've gained implied Consent, that's great. It doesn't circumvent the spells mechanics and rules. You have to be able to land a hit first and get them to 0 LP. If your planning on doing that, Tether or any Stun/Binding spell won't be helping you.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:18 pm

I will check on Arcane Bindings and Lightning Bind to see if they were to be moved to OOB, but keep in mind the admin database is down and I can't literally flip the switch if its true, I'll have to rely on just a general announcement.

If you spam Stun bolt, your wasting time and should have just hightailed it out of the fight a long time ago. It does nothing for either side except waste stamina that you have to take a round to recover. D-U-M-B.

Not all players want to play WaM or want to play with single handed weapons. Also, since the victim is pinned to an area, close attacks of any kind can be negated by the magi just stepping back out of reach ICly.


Sure. You're right. It was an example though to show that not everything is going to be the absolutetly worst case scenario. It takes a lot of work and the right kind of luck to do that, and in some cases I, personally, don't see that as a problem. Opinions vary. Of course. Although, maybe leaving the STR thing open-ended isn't a bad idea. I would have just gone with a straight !ranmag vs def roll myself. no modifiers needed.

All player feedback is being taken into account. There are some changes that will come from this, and some that will not, despite one or two complaints. Trust me, it was more than one person considering the questions asked before they were answered! :)
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:25 pm

So the argument now for it is that it's ok to have magi's with a spell that can give them a substantial advantage over anyone else they face in a fight so long as they don't kill the other?


Most of the dramatic stories we weave together come to a head in combat, that's part of the fun of playing in a low fantasy setting. It's rare to have a scene end in death, so that means that the other 95% of the time, it's alright to have Magi's with this considerable advantage?

If you spam Stun bolt, your wasting time and should have just hightailed it out of the fight a long time ago. It does nothing for either side except waste stamina that you have to take a round to recover. D-U-M-B.

Was pointing out the differences between stun bolt and tether o the stars. Stun bolt isn't going to win. It was designed at first I think to give the caster time to run. Speaking of..

isn't tether of stars a bit redundant? I mean Magi already have Fantasy to imoblize another (much like a stunbolt) and run away?
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:41 pm

Arcane Bindings is still Anywhere.

Lightning Bind was OOB, then switched back to Anywhere -- Alren you're the one who actually asked for that. :)

Both those spells essentially do the same thing Tether does. The exception is Tether has a roll to break out of the binding. which can be modified to be easier to use.

Should we nix all three spells based on that argument that have the potential to immobilize anyone is unfair?
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:50 pm

I'm down for nixing all three actually, or at least bringing them to oob.

Either those kinds of spells should be open to all classes (even melee) with their own flavor or not at all.

I have no idea what I said way back when AM was being looked over. It was when I was first brought on dev and there seemed to be a hint that all the sphere's would be looked at. I think at that time I may have been of the opinion of "hey.. give it to everyone!" to allow more flexibility in how the game was going, and thinking that the work being done on the physical classes gaining abilities like mages' have that could effect their opponents would be right around the corner.

Time has proven that stance to be wrong.

I say push them all to OOB, they're still there to add a bit of flair, but a bit overpowered for the way that the dice system is set up if only a fraction of classes have access to them
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