New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Questions and suggestions for new spells, changes to spells and the magic system

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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:10 am

We could make it OOB, but, I have always had a problem with making a spell 'out of battle' when in essence, to land the spell, you have to 'fight' the victim to land a successful hit. It would be probably come down to just nixing them all together.

This is not saying we will. It's playing devil's advocate if we feel the problems brought up, were enough, or warranted enough, to take such action.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby mozenwrathe on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:11 am

Okay. Throwing in a couple of Canadian quarters.

First thing, there was a time that people that played Magi either got bored of the race and left it, or switched out of the Magi to a different race. Just putting that out there in terms of "why are Magi getting new and revised spells, anyway?" Technically speaking, we're still in that time. I know, because I've found out people said "I can't do anything with this character" and moved on. One of the reasons I along with a few others tried to make/ rewrite some spells for the Magi.

Secondly, as awesome as it would be to have spells that would completely crush the opposition magically... even I have to say that wouldn't be fair. Please note, there are some Magi spells that my main character - a Magi - is in fact completely incapable of using. Putting that out there so people don't think I'm just out to make my character solely "The Magical Juggernaut." That's not the point. If I wanted to do that, I'd run enough quests and events to get loaded up with relics and items of power to achieve the same effect.

Okay, to quote a few things here and there:

So the argument now for it is that it's ok to have magi's with a spell that can give them a substantial advantage over anyone else they face in a fight so long as they don't kill the other?


No, the argument (at least for me) is that it's the goal to have Magi get a few spells that put them on par with all the other magical classes. You know, like Air Mages and Necromancers. Note my words please: on par and not superior to. If some of the spells need tweaking and altering to get them on an even keel, then so be it. There's no point in making them "the ultimate magic users" to the point one showing up at level five causes a bar to clear out.

I can't really comment on Tether Of The Stars because... that one's completely new to me. And new to everyone else. So it's probably still needing some buffing and sanding to fit into the grand puzzle that is Belariath's magical system. Though there was one statement that caught my attention in the most recent set of posts:

The spell combinations are awesome. For Magi. Not so much for everyone else.


Isn't there some Necromancer spell that's like roll once and pretty much anyone who fails it can be snuffed out in one shot if they didn't load up on a stat? Someone called it the "Choke-A-Bitch" spell a few times. Let me see if I can hunt it down...

Asphyxiate:
Level required: 30
Class required: Necromancer
Spell prerequisites (must have all of): Umbara Key
Casting method: ranmagatk
Defending method: ranmagdef
Description: Necromancer x4
Spell Required: Serpent's Kiss (10)

Description: It is a great power to be able to manipulate the physical form of another being, living, dead, or otherwise. Controlling limbs, bringing disease and poison, and even constricting the very air one can breathe. With a simple gesture, the necromancer can choke the very life from another being, taking great pleasure in the guttural, gagging noises as they slowly suffocate.

Mechanics: Using a ranged magical attack, and constant concentration, the necromancer can create a crushing force of magic about the target's throat, slowly and painfully choking them. So long as the necromancer retains concentration on this spell, and it is successful in its casting, the target is unable to perform any action except defense against the Necromancer's will, losing 5 stamina per round until the caster's concentration is broken, or the target suffers a loss of no more than 30 stamina. Concentration requires a standard combat roll of ranmagatk vs ranmagdef per round, with appropriate modifiers to see if the spell breaks prematurely or not. If used out of battle, the spell cannot be used for longer than 3 rounds of play. This is usable once per combat scene.


Now I am told this spell isn't over powered by any means. Fine. As long as the same weight scale is used for the new Magi spells, everything should scale up properly. If that means some of the new spells need to be reworked for the math, then they do. After all, it's about trying to find a balance for everyone.

Something was brought up as well about sometihng involving trying to attack someone one-handed or using a Warrior-Mage that can cast one handed. I completely forgot Warrior-Mages could do that. I really wish Magi could as well. Ah well, a guy can dream, can't he? (So says the person who only has been using cantrips for his Magi for over a year.)

In terms of all the myriad possibilities in how the spells can be used, when I myself was trying to write stuff up, I was just trying to get it past the censors, you know? I wasn't looking at every single potential loophole or chained connection. And I know, Almondus, you saw some of the stuff I was working on. Heck, you commented on it and helped me try to refine it. And for that I do thank you. I just hope that the potential for mix/max types to abuse the spells do not end up curtailing all the efforts made. Because if it did... perhaps all of the spheres would need to be looked at for that. If they aren't already being reviewed, that is.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby miyuka on Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:15 am

wait...wait what? So because the spell gives them an advantage in combat it should be nixed? So...should we only have spells that do damage? I'm really confused on what the problem is. Is it the bit that says if four limbs are captured they are at the Magi's mercy? The only valid thing I see here is that it's a bit redundant since fantasy essentially does the same thing with the stunning.

Anyway, making Lightning bind and Tether of the Stars OOB would not be such a bad idea IMHO. If the issue is that it makes combat un-fun due to the way it works I can see where the argument for such is coming from. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm not going to say no to that change. Seems kinda pointless when it has so much in combat mechanics to make it OOB though which is why I'm quite sure Lightning Bind itself was made an anywhere spell.

To Mozenwrathe: Don't worry so much about it. You did what you needed to the rest was up to dev. Some of the things said were a bit blown out of proportion or read incorrectly anyways. The current subject on Tether of the stars honestly as you've already pointed out with your example, is actually in keeping it up to par with other spells or moving that type of mechanic to an OOB or just nixing it altogether.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:39 am

losing 5 stamina per round until the caster's concentration is broken, or the target suffers a loss of no more than 30 stamina. Concentration requires a standard combat roll of ranmagatk vs ranmagdef per round, with appropriate modifiers to see if the spell breaks prematurely or not. If used out of battle, the spell cannot be used for longer than 3 rounds of play. This is usable once per combat scene.


Is what makes the spell balanced.

Notice that Asphyxiate has a cap and will expire after 30 stam has been drained, that caster must maintain focus, so.. can't do any other spells, and that it's only able to be cast ONCE per combat.

Does Tether have a cap on how long it can last like Asphyxiate?
no

Does Tether force the caster to do nothing but maintain focus like Asphyxiate?
no

Does Tether have the limitation of only being used once a combat like Asphyxiate?
no

Does Tether take into account magic defense, or a full defensive roll like Asphyxiate to keep up?
no


That puts Tether not at the same level as Asphyxiate, but far, far above it especially with it's ability to work around defensive rolls and to lock down a character completely with 2 casts regardless of how much life a character has.




I have put in suggestions on how to bring it more in line. I believe in constructive criticism. Saying that everything is fine, or not looking directly at the questions being raised I think is a disservice towards the spirit of putting the spells up for more general discussion.

No, the argument (at least for me) is that it's the goal to have Magi get a few spells that put them on par with all the other magical classes. You know, like Air Mages and Necromancers. Note my words please: on par and not superior to. If some of the spells need tweaking and altering to get them on an even keel, then so be it. There's no point in making them "the ultimate magic users" to the point one showing up at level five causes a bar to clear out.


There's been points brought up as to how the spells listed would bring Magi ABOVE what the other classes have available to them. If your intention is to find an equality, then I think more uses of compare and contrast could be useful.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:50 am

and after reading Fantasy, does it break if the victim is attacked?

If not.. er.. It should be fixed. If so.. could probably use a bit more clear verbiage.

I know this thread is for new spells for the sphere, but the old ones are being reviewed too right?

I'd like to point out that even if that particular spell does break with the person being attacked, it's already about 60% better then stun bolt. Stun bolt lasts for a max of 5 rounds and Fantasy lasts for 8 (15/2 = 7.5 round up to 8 ).

Fantasy also isn't able to be broken by cure the senses like stun bolt.

Fantasy doesn't allow the victim to cast defensive spells like stun bolt.

Fantasy doesn't allow the victim to !evade like stun bolt.

Fantasy doesn't allow the victim to flee like stun bolt.



If people weren't playing Magi because they didn't have an I win button, that's on them. We as gamer's shouldn't look towards drawing players towards another class by making them more powerful then another.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby mozenwrathe on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:06 am

Some of the spells in the current list there (as of June 28 2013) are old spells that were revised or revamped. That's my understanding of it, such as Fantasy. If Tether Of The Stars needs tweaking (as you've pointed out there are some "holes" that need addressing), then it does. End of story. I am not contesting that at all. Probably the suggestions you've made would put it in line with what else is out there. I've not gone through it all precisely as of yet, but I know your style and I am sure you have some leveling scripts around there stashed away for just such an occasion.

As I do not know if other spells that I myself worked on are still being reviewed/ refined, I can't post up what I did here yet in terms of "attempts to balance." The spell Squeezing Sortilege was one I worked on, and that was based on someone else's work to begin with. It did go through a lot of teasing and pulling and such before I put up the "final copy" for dev.team review. So if the spells after they've been put through the dev.team still need teasing and pulling, I am all for it. Just as long as the "this doesn't work because" is followed up by a previously existing spell that knuckleheads (or Canuck-leheads) like me can see where the scales have been set at previously.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Infernis on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:45 am

I don't see the balance in allowing a spell that cuts an opponent's combat rolls in half, and also allowing a spell that gives up to +30% boost to that same caster's stats for 3 rounds.

Even without the Tether spell, you literally have 3 rounds where your opponent is crippled combat-wise and you're pumping out spells at 130% power.

Perhaps it's not intended, but it took me all of 5 minutes to figure out a casting rotation that allow a Magi to destroy someone of equal level and there's not much the Magi's opponent can do about it.

And I'm not seeing anyone saying "Oh gee, that's not what we intended at all."

So, maybe I missed that somewhere in the thread, or are these spells basically okay in the eyes of the Developers?
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 am

Infernis, the -50% and +30% have been considered. There are spells and abilities out there that will do that outside the Magi Sphere. I've also played in diced combat where my own character was a victim of such a thing where attack was at -15% and defense at -50% from an Air Mage. I did not cry foul at the time and won through other means. Even though I failed defense and attack rolls. Yes, my character is high level, so the % razors off a higher number if my roll is a high one, but those numbers would be well in line had I been a lower level as well, and provided my opponent was not 10 or 20 levels higher then me, I imagine I would have weathered on just the same.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Infernis on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:35 am

So, because the other spells are badly designed, it's okay for these to be badly designed?

Bear in mind, I don't do dice combat. I have no stake in this, either way. So, it won't effect me, whatever the decision might end up being.

All the same, for a thread that's supposed to 'welcome criticism', you don't seem to welcome criticism at all.

These spells seemed designed entirely out of balance with the power level of the rest of the spell spheres, and to make matters worse, that doesn't seem to be a problem of concern for those in charge of balancing these spells.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:51 am

If my tone comes across as unwelcoming, then I am certainly sorry about that. My questions are sincere when reposed back to those commenting, and not meant to be taken as critical or sarcastic.

Tether will be taken out and rewritten. Or scrapped along with any other spell that falls in line with the same mechanics. Those badly designed spells you've mentioned before, I unfortunately cannot agree that they are, because we have in the past and still do, test such spells out in live combat to see if they really do pose such a problem as others may perceive. They are not created lightly, or slapped together in the hopes of out maneuvering every other class/race out there, as a few may wish to think. :)
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby L`aquera on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:52 am

Criticism vs Badgering? I'd say the thread is verging on the last.

And I don't do dev and I'm irritated. It is very frustrating to be trampled on while answering your questions while you take what you want out of the answer and slap her some more.

If that is your intention rather then offering your view, by all means, continue. But when you get a "thanks." and nothing further, don't say you didn't see it coming and blame someone else for aggravating the piss out of them.

Or.. you can post your views, nod at the answers, say you don't agree but you'll see how it goes. Because dev is a series of tries and rehashings and effort and time. So give it that time.

Do I agree with what is being said? Yes. I see the issue clearly enough. And now, you've given dev food for thought. So let the food settle and be a lil bit more on the patient side. I know that isn't easy because I'm the action woman. "DO IT NOW!" but unfortunately, that is how the system works. Nothing is written in stone, especially around here. Offer to work with some of the dev members on what you are seeing and give clear results via the Quest/arena. Something that may help you all.

Thank you
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Almondus on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:47 am

I had fun with that fight Sut!

It was a close one really, but.. keep in mind that it probably shouldn't have been that close considering Sut has a large level margin on Alren.

Am's do have spells that need to be looked at too. Particularly the umbara sphere lighting ball that does 1/2 to attacks coupled with steal your breath.

yes, that's 1/2 to attack and 1/2 to def for umbara mages... but that's for a different thread.

No, I don't expect them to be over hauled this moment. yes I do appreciate the time dev puts into it, but part of the reason that I used those first two spells on you in our spar Sut was to kinda see them in practice with someone in power to make a change.

As I recall, when alren used them he took quite a lead in the fight against someone that was 49 levels higher then him. Things only turned around in Sutara's favor when she turned to use her LI. To me, that's food for thought on the balance of it.

If my tone was offensive or stand off ish, it was not the intent. Generally I work in an environment where it pays to be direct, quickly get to the point with detail. I rather enjoyed playing with Sutara, and talking about game stuff with pry, and if good things are coming out of this thread I don't see a reason for it to be locked so long as feelings aren't being hurt and progress is being made.

To keep things on more of a constructive level, would it be better to just start a separate thread that players can post on about what spells they think are over / under powered in the suggestions part of the message board?
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby lyllamarie on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:52 am

spells related to Magi need to remain in this thread so we're not running around searching for things. As I said before, we're giving it 4 weeks for comments before any revisions are put into effect. This thread will also need to be kept on track to discuss only Magi spells, referencing other spells is fine, but no going off on a tangent on some other sphere, etc.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Tawny on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:49 am

I say leave them as they are. Its not like its a spell that can kill or do great bodily harm. Besides if you want ever race and every class to be completely level then why not just stay with how it worked before. But even then if someone had more slots of a spell that person had an advantage. Might Makes Right.. isnt that what the bases of what this game is? If you dont have the spells to combat then run. Run until you can get stronger and get the right spells to combat. But really we cant keep going back and forth with the spells to try and please everyone or we will get nowhere fast. Binding spells can end a fight quickly but its not the only spells out there that can. Stronger spells give people something to work towards. Its a goal and everyone needs a goal. Just my two cents worth.
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Re: New Magi Spells - Question and Comment thread

Postby Amara on Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:05 am

Tawny makes a very good point. MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

The Magi needed some kickass spells, the poor things.

I say - LET'S HEAR FROM MORE FOLKS ...


Also, I'd like to add that IF you have complaints about the spells, please offer up suggestions. Don't leave a negative without a positive. :D
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