The lance

Questions and suggestions for new weapons, changes to weapons and the combat system

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The lance

Postby Thea on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:10 am

About the lance. I realized that there is one way to give it it's proper strength without making it unbalanced. Now I think degrading its power to 3 when unhorsed is a good idea, but it is mounted combat I am mostly concerned with since mounted the damage of a lance should not be rivaled by a Nodachi, a two handed sword, or any ax. Lets face it, the Nodachi is the same str requirement but is stronger 100% of the time, mounted or unmounted. There is a way to justify a power boost though, because the lance has a very particular weakness. That is to say when mounted, lances break. Well all weapons break under that kind of stress eventually over the years, but lances are especially prone to breaking. That is why Knights would have someone following them around with three or four spares. If one could make four or five passes with their weapon still intact it was considered an exceptional lance. I think adding a simple chance to break would justify a stronger mounted attack especially considering this weapon is always situational.
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Re: The lance

Postby miyuka on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:17 pm

I don't really feel such a thing is necessary.
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Re: The lance

Postby Thea on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:26 pm

Well strictly speaking absolutely no change is necessary to the game. Much of the games functions though are not necessary, necessity is not the lenses through which we view what is want in a game. Its a past time, the point of it is interest and entertainment rather than necessity. Anyways more to the point if your fire spell froze some one solid the change to making it burn is not necessary, but making something make sense has its own merit. A lance while horsed really should be a definitive option for a warrior of any kind. The idea that swords of any kind on foot out matching it makes just as much sense as your fire spell freezing someone. I was offering that because of the force behind them that they break as a fruit basket for those who might be worried about it becoming too overbearing in the game. Compared to spells this is still a markably simplistic process for the price of making such a situational weapon both more fair and make more sense.
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Re: The lance

Postby miyuka on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:23 pm

I just don't really care for the whole it can break portion of it. It already has a modifier of 5 when mounted and 3 if used as a spear unmounted. How much more would you say it needed?
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Re: The lance

Postby Thea on Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:40 pm

Well yeah your right, breakable thing isn't really the point, that might have been a misguided suggestion. Moving up to D (only one class would suffer from that, and the weapon is already justifiably unpopular to begin with) or just buffing it in general is just fine. There was a reason it was the definitive battlefield weapon for so long. With the horse's power behind it it didn't matter what you where wearing, it would kill you if it hit.

Now I am not saying it should be a one hit, that would be retarded. I would expect only a small argument 6 or 7 when mounted but still 3 when not to pass. But honestly, realistically I would argue higher at 8, 9, or even 10 when mounted because no matter how many weights you lift, the idea that your arm gives more of an impact than the power of a charging horse focused on a ball point is preposterous. What melee weapon in history gives more impact and kill power than a lance? A weapon that impacts the enemy so hard it can shatter you arm. A weapon that can penetrate the french double plate (the thickest plate mail of the day), the person wearing it, and by some accounts come out the other side. By what measure are any of the other weapons on this list it's equal in raw killing potential? Though when unmounted it really is just a simple spear and should have 3.
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Re: The lance

Postby miyuka on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:10 am

A mace can shatter someone's arm, so can a warhammer. Certain swords can cut through skin flesh sinew bone. All of which don't need the power of a horse behind it. Of course, having the power of a horse behind you is the point here so what other weapons can or can't do at that point is not all that important. While I still think 5 is a solid number for mounted lance combat I would be adverse to upping it one or two points but I'm curious to see what others think.
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Re: The lance

Postby Thea on Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:27 am

You miss read. I meant your own arm, from using it. That's what the body harness is for. To balance it and take some of the shock from your arm. And I wasn't talking about cutting bone sinew flesh. I said penetrating double plates on top of everything else. Name one sword that shreds double plated armor. Name one you can even really reasonably expect to penetrate that.
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Re: The lance

Postby crow on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:04 pm

I think that for as long as I have been here..
I've only once seen anyone fight on horseback, and that was a test.

So given how situational the lance is I think the payoff can be a quite bit bigger considering practically 99.999% of the time it's just an expensive spear and the other 0.001% it's a slightly worse Pole Axe. I feel it's probably fair to make it atleast much better than a Pole Axe when the mounted condition is met.

Possibly the price of the lance would have to go up depending on the modifier when mounted, though keeping in mind mounted combat is rare enough that it does not warrent the same price as weapons with the same modifier by default.

Comparing the Lance to the Pole Axe it's 5mhl buys you an objectively better weapon without the mounted condition and 2 less str.

Lance
Description: Doubles as Spear (ATK 3) when used dismounted Not usuable by Rangers
Strength (STR) Required: 22
Attack Modifier: 5
Equipment Slots Used: 2
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 90.00 Mehrials


Pole Axe
Description: Not usuable by Rangers
Strength (STR) Required: 20
Attack Modifier: 5
Equipment Slots Used: 2
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 95.00 Mehrials
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Re: The lance

Postby miyuka on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:17 am

with the power of a horse behind it I'd say any other weapon? I'd imagine it's more about force than anything else which I'm guessing is the point yer making, but I already stated I wouldn't be adverse to upping it one or two points. Or that's what I was trying to say I may have made a typo. And how often a weapon does or doesn't get used has no real basis for how strong or weak it should be. A 6, maybe a 7, sure, but anything more than that I'd personally say no. At the very least something Dev can quickly take a look at.
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Re: The lance

Postby Thea on Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:30 am

Well like I said, I would only realistically argue with hopes for a seven, so we can agree on that. Thanks for the numbers crow. And thanks for taking the time Yuka.
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