Duel Wielding

Questions and suggestions for new weapons, changes to weapons and the combat system

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Duel Wielding

Postby Setan on Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:32 pm

This is less a suggestion and more of a question. On the website in regards to duel-wielding it says this:

Dual Wielding

Carrying two weapons has no effect on combat rolls unless you possess a specific skill where a second weapon can be brought into play. Otherwise the secondary weapon is purely for roleplay effect and does nothing to modify attack or defense rolls.

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What specific skill do you need and what sort of weapons can be used, and how do you use the commands to carry it out?
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Zaira on Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:44 pm

From my understanding.
No required skill(s) needed (beyond being able to wield the weapon, of course).
No command or alerations to combatdice (as it is purely for fluff and not mechanical in any form).
And; I would assume any one handed weapon that the character is able to use (based off of class).
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Xunnie on Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:54 am

This is actually something I would love to see put into combat instead of fluff rp. I realize that there seem to be a lot of complications that one can think of when trying to implement it into the fighting system - however, I propose this.

Dual wield characters be allowed two attacks per turn but because it would be an unfair advantage set it up that the main hand of the character receive normal stats/normal damage. The off hand holding the second weapon receives normal stats but the damage is halved. This reduces that advantage - but does allow the fighting classes to have some ability to stand against the mage classes that can whomp on a fighter from a distance.

Now, because stamina is used with each round of combat, it stands to reason that someone swinging two weapons would burn through their stamina more quickly than someone who is not. This would need to be taken into consideration and those dual wielding would have a penalty to their stamina. They would not be able to fight as long as others. Again - this is reducing that advantage that using two weapons/getting two attacks a round would bring.

To further even the playing field on this - it should be a skill that only certain races/classes can have. Example: Barbarians, imo, should not get the use of dual wield because it is more an agility skill than strength skill - and the typical image of barbarian is someone with brute strength that would rather have a sword as long as you are that they use to basically swing with raw strength to batter you into submission (or death). The elven races however, imo, should be allowed this skill because they are known for agility. What they lack in strength is made up for by the use of two blades.

Classes would be tricky. Warriors/Knights/Warlords/War Mages - no. Knights gets shields and should be able to use a shield in a fight. Warrions - warlords - war mages ... they have brute strength (and in the case of a war mage .. spells as well). Thieves, Rangers, Mist Raiders - definitely. These classes rely on agility instead of brute strength. It is feasible to see them with two weapons and fighting with them.

How to set up the skill of dual wield: While I do not like the skill tree as it is right now (this is a different topic and I wont bring it up now) I say that such a skill should be a ranked skill. It is not something that a person would just pick up two swords and viola - they are masters at it. And I would almost be willing to say that it should be something with a level restriction on it. Nothing under say level 10.

But that is just my idea on how it could be implemented into the game and fighting system.

Edit because mun forgot to mention -
The skill of dual wield should take consideration that certain weapons would not be allowed. Only certain weapon classes. A thief running around with two great swords would be ridiculous and logically impossible to fight with. It could even be done the way a Mist Raider is done - MR's can use A and B .. a dual wield could be done the same way.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Scathien on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:05 am

Here is the deal,

You are more than welcome to wield two weapons at once, however this does not grant you two attacks, or the combined attack power of both weapons. You are only able to strike with a single weapon during your combat turn unless you happen to have a skill of some sort that allows you to do otherwise. Hense, it does not matter if you wield more than weapon, you can only use the attack bonus of a single weapon at a time.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Xunnie on Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:57 pm

Scathien

What is the title of this forum? OOC Suggestions.
Let's look at the definition of suggestions shall we? Because apparently you do not understand what it means and just want to slam your boot down on anything we, the players, may have thought about, worked up and presented saying "It's an idea, a suggestion that we think is pretty cool." Outright deciding to act like you are Emperor Tyrant over everything and everyone makes you look like an ass. Or as my daughter would say.. "rude much ass?"

Now, for clarfication here.
Suggestion: sug·ges·tion (sg-jschn, s-js-)
n.
1. The act of suggesting.
2. Something suggested: We ordered the shrimp, a suggestion of the waiter.
3. The sequential process by which one thought or mental image leads to another.
4.
a. A psychological process by which an idea is induced in or adopted by another without argument, command, or coercion.
b. An idea or response so induced.
5. A hint or trace: just a suggestion of makeup; the first suggestion of trouble ahead.

If you do not want players to make suggestions of what they think would be cool to try to work into the game - dont have a suggestion thread. Simple as that. Take the corn cob out of your ass and look at what was posted as it was meant to be seen. A suggestion put forward for the game owner and the dev team to consider.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Vysanth on Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:28 pm

If the powers-that-be choose to ignore the idea, it eventually goes away.
It may come back in different forms, but it will go away again.
That's the way it has been for many years.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Scathien on Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:32 pm

Aww how cute Xunnie. It's people like you that bring a smile to my face every once and a while ^.^

Unfortunately I wasn't directing my response to you, I was directing it to the first post of the thread, who asked how Dual Wielding works in this game. To be honest I did not even read whatever your suggestion was so before you start rambling (again) on about how I am trying to squash new ideas and the like might I suggest you save ranting for the rants and raves board?

Anyway, since my response was directed at Setan (who stated: "This is less a suggestion and more of a question."), Ill go ahead and clarify once again, just in case anyone else is slow on the pickup.

Setan:

You do not need a specific skill to dual wield. You can dual wield any two one handed weapons at a single time, however as the rules currently are, you can only attack with one of them at a time, and as such only use the attack bonus from one at a time. Dual Wielding is purely RP fluff (unless there is some sort of skill in the game I may be currently unaware of) for the time being. If there are no such skills, then it will remain RP Fluff until a workable solution is sent through the proper dev channels and fully implemented in the game.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Setan on Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:30 pm

I see that now, there are no combat commands to allow this to work. Which brings me to what Xunnie was pointing out, can we come up with a new command to make it work or work with the existing commands? It really is a viable combat style that many classes could use.

I like Xunnie's ideas about this, she's clearly thought about it herself. The only difference I would have suggested was rather than having half damage on the second sword, it would be swung every second attack. ie.
Setan(duel-wielder) swings sword one, then sword two. Xunnie swings her two-handed sword. Setan swings sword one. Xunnie swings her sword again. Setan swings sword one and then sword two.

The only issue I see with this, and it's probably why the option isn't allowed in the first place is because it relies on the players to be fair. To choose when they're supposed to swing. The less we rely on the players, and the more we rely on the commands, the more balanced it will be. However, with Xunnie's idea of half damage for all duel-wielders, that takes some of the reliance away, making it, in my opinion a more plausible idea.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Vysanth on Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:32 am

If you work on the basis of half damage, there's no additional combat commands required for it to work, you can just roll for damage normally if you hit and then halve / round up or down the damage.

That being said, there used to be a time when there were many magic spells that allowed multiple attacks within a single round, but most of them have since been fixed / nerfed.

Given that is the case, it would appear that the Dev Team in general might just prefer that everyone sticks to one attack per turn. RP wise, I have a character that uses a long sword, a shield to ram / bludgeon, and a spiked mace on her tail, usually applying it simultaneously, but each aimed at a different place in a space-restrictive / evasion pre-empting attack, and usually only one of the weapons would strike the target.

In fact even if all 3 struck the target, it could be characterised by a single ATTACK / DAMAGE roll, that would still make sense.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Aeria Nighthawk on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:51 am

As I have a character who wields more than one weapon in almost all of her fights I'll give my two cents on this subject. Duel wielding is a very effective fighting style in many regards while sacrificing certain areas in other regards. A two handed blow will almost always strike with more power than an one handed blow. Also duel wielding in a real life situation is far more complicated that fighting with just one weapon. It takes a lot of thought to prevent yourself from injuring yourself with your own weapons when duel wielding. That being said it dramatically increases your flexibility in combat. While you use one weapon to block/deflect you use the other to strike with. If one blade is parried then you use the other to launch you attack. And if by some miracle you see a giant opening, then there is the double stab or duel sweep, but such attacks are highly dangerous to the fighter as it leaves little opportunity to defend. But all of these movements can be represented by a single damage roll, especially considering that there is no auto-hitting in posts allowed (and for good reason too). I prefer free forming as opposed to dice for this reason, as while a life value is useful, I do dislike such a system. It is all a matter of personal preference.

So in a long winded way I do not believe that wielding two weapons entitles your character to two attacks and two damage rolls. The ability to abuse it is just too high and frankly it doesn't make too much sense. This being said though there is one thing that comes to mind. Generally magic classes are not as physically minded as physical classes (duh). So that being said their reflexes and speed should be less than most warriors. I propose that a physical class possessing an AGI at least 15 points greater than the magic class' RES (I use RES as I view it as their ability to remain in a spell casting stance while a armed and armored target is barreling towards them) should be allowed to launch 2 attacks in the time it takes for a mage to wave his hands about verbalize his/her spell whether or not the physical class is duel wielding or not. (and for the stamina cost of 2 attacks as well of course) In some way it helps balance the two types of classes being that magic classes possess the greatest potential for defense in the game.

That's all. My opinion regarding physical classes fighting magic classes just came to me reading this thread so likely there are areas that would need work. But if there is any chance of this being included into the game I'd be glad to put more thought into it.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Merrshan on Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:23 am

For my part the more important part is not to balance fighting versus magic but to balance the different fighting styles, which have historically proven themselves at some times. And which should all be equally useful in dice combat so that it's more a question of personal style and taste than squeezing an advantage from the rule.
First: Fighting with a large two-handed weapon. These weapons have high STR requirements but give a significant inherent bonus to attacks.
Second: Use weapon and shield. The shield allows the wielder a bonus to defense.
Note that both of the other styles give a fixed bonus from your equipment. No change in the number of attack or defense rolls allowed.
Third: Dual-wielding. As Aeria pointed out a flexible style that allows either attacking or defending with your off hand.

So my suggestion is that the most consistent rule change would be that using an off hand weapon allows you to decide whether you use it offensively or defensively. Then you add a fixed bonus that depends on the kind of weapon you use and its enchantment to either your attack or defense rolls.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Kronos on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:51 am

In my personal experience of martial arts in real life, fighting styles with dual weilding weapons (Filipino Kali, for example) have only one advantage with dual weilding, and that is to defend and attack at the same time. Since this would make the combat system MUCH more complicated, I'm in agreement that dual wielders shouldn't get any special treatment or combat advantage of two weapons. Even if someone attacks twice in a round, once with each weapon, this would leave the attacker with a HUGE opening to get struck back, more so than if they had sword and shield, or a sword and a free hand. In true combat fashion, that just doesn't work.

So, for cinematic/RP purposes, it would make sense that one weapon be used offensively, and the second weapon be used defensively. The advantage is that either weapon can switch from offense to defense at any time, unlike a sword and shield, which primarly sits at one side of the warrior, or the other.

Long dead post, im sure, but being an avid 'double dealer', both IC and OOC, I felt compelled to put in my two cents. Thanks
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby miyuka on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:38 am

Quite the dead post, but in case anyone is reading this. Nope. No Dual wielding. It's an RP only thing for now. IT may come into play some time when Physical abilities get released...or ya know it might remain RP only forever.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Shoji on Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:14 am

So, I love the idea of adding something more to physical classes, and I think this is a great way to start that conversation along...dead post or not. However, I do have this to say about Xunnie's suggestions, call them my 'edits' to said suggestion.

Xunnie wrote:
To further even the playing field on this - it should be a skill that only certain races/classes can have. Example: Barbarians, imo, should not get the use of dual wield because it is more an agility skill than strength skill - and the typical image of barbarian is someone with brute strength that would rather have a sword as long as you are that they use to basically swing with raw strength to batter you into submission (or death). The elven races however, imo, should be allowed this skill because they are known for agility. What they lack in strength is made up for by the use of two blades.

Classes would be tricky. Warriors/Knights/Warlords/War Mages - no. Knights gets shields and should be able to use a shield in a fight. Warrions - warlords - war mages ... they have brute strength (and in the case of a war mage .. spells as well). Thieves, Rangers, Mist Raiders - definitely. These classes rely on agility instead of brute strength. It is feasible to see them with two weapons and fighting with them.




I actually disagree with the opinion on Dual Wielding with stats and classes. Barbarian's in most fantasy games, are actually the lightly armored raiders that use two handed heavy weapons OR one handed light dual wielded weapons just as well, but beyond that...Dexterity is wonderful..for moving quickly, or taking aimed range shots. HOwever, when it comes to wielding two weapons...Strength is all that matters. Be as lithe and quick as you want, wielding a pair of daggers...but to hold two swords that way anywhere from 5-15 lbs each, and one in a 'off hand' is difficult, and takes a lot of strength. As well, Warriors would be completely something within the field to do such. A sword and an axe. As well, shield...where as they are armor...are also weapons, and take a lot of control and skill to use in your off hand. So even a knight could make sense. Now I also agree, that thieves are known for daggers, and many of them. I would say it would require class skills or something, or even a qualifying stat depending on the weapon. High Str means dual wielding normal/heavy weapons, high dex dual wielding light weapons? Just my two cents.
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Re: Duel Wielding

Postby Wadeywade on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:54 pm

I find it a novel concept, rp or applied. I am content to know either way, you can use two weapons. so.. using one to parry, one to attack would be an acceptable form?
I only gather this from what Miyuka and Scathien posted, that youd only have one attack that has effect. so it stands to reason that other knife might be a defensive tool, if a person was to dual wield.
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