Belariath

Firstly, any business is a community. Trade centers. Archaeologists (who compete like thieves for their finds) and even Lawyers. When you have a gathering of people with similar ideals and goals, and same professions, you have a community. They work together, they work for themselves and they work for others, all at once.

As for outright booting... Let's say you boot someone. What lesson is learned? What fear is instilled? What is to stop them from spreading rumors, reporting the illegal tidbits to the Imperial Guard (where it matters of the Empire and Imperial properties) and further spreading any information gained from being in the guild? Nothing.

Really.. I don't think he thieves guild should be a simple club house or a revolving door. Being "booted" isn't that big of a threat. There should be so much more to it, and can be so much more to it. Maybe even making them a target goal for the new members? It's worse beyond blacklisting. Thieves always tend to have not just a "loner flare" but also a social flare of the purest peer pressure. It's one of the many beauties about thieves coming together. There's also the finesse of a set up.. Put the accused/traitor into a set-up position where they are caught. See if they flip.. or if they remain loyal, give them points of either after the fact.. and let the set-up be their punishment as the consequences of such can range from a fine, to slavery or death. Or a branding. Lots of possibilities.

See. TLI isn't the environment where people should band together. If they steal from a person, let that person deal with it. It shouldn't effect you. If they steal something where you both would benefit, then you step in. It effects you because of how your pay was effected. Then and only then is it ok for you to seek revenge against a person. This is not RL morals, and we have to remember it. This is a land where might makes right, and you are seen to be weak if you rely on others.

Agreed

Logolar wrote:See. TLI isn't the environment where people should band together. If they steal from a person, let that person deal with it. It shouldn't effect you. If they steal something where you both would benefit, then you step in. It effects you because of how your pay was effected. Then and only then is it ok for you to seek revenge against a person. This is not RL morals, and we have to remember it. This is a land where might makes right, and you are seen to be weak if you rely on others.

so thieves are outcasts even among themselves with no social order or standing?
it doesnt have anything to do with banding together or revenge. if thats why people want the guild then forget that. it wasnt even why I brought it up; any other class is an accepted part of noble houses or other professions.. but being a professional thief in the hierarchy of thieves vying for position... that makes sense, and how it is, without a guild they are just outcasts, period. I know they are supposed to be outside but to be completely stigmatized even among their own kind.. that goes beyond the 'no banding' idea and into pretty much making them a sub-sub class even a slave has standing over in that line of thinking.
it was never my intent for bands of thieves to roam the town, but for them to have a social support system and method of passing information. also a method of recruiting new members and training them under experienced individuals.
(I should point out, slaves were allowed their own 'guild', the Tuatha.. thingy.. I can never remember the full name. where they are allowed social standing, training, etcetera.)

There already is a Thieves Guild in the game, this is simply a way to give people who want to participate more to do. To say that people shouldn't "band together" in TLI kinda flies in the face of evidence. Every noble house, every temple and many of the other RP groups have bound themselves together and get a lot of fun out of it. Why not have one that is focused on skulduggery over cleaning kitchens? Some people might get more out of the "dark and dastardly" as opposed to the other options.

What, exactly, is wrong with a group of people who work together to accomplish goals they cannot otherwise handle on their own, for extra money? Isn't that sort of what shops are supposed to do, in essence? Places where crafting characters pool their resources and create more together then they could as individuals, thereby "banding together" in a sense. This is akin to that, save that the methods of producing wealth are simply a lot less... honest. By the natural extension of what Logolar said, we really shouldn't have many of the current organizations that are in place. We have The Society of Bards and Artisans, as one specific example. We have the Warlord class, which is focused around bringing groups of people together for a common purpose. These might not be for everyone... but I think there is more then enough evidence to point at and say that groups with self-serving goals are quite in line with the lore and mindset of TLI. Of course, people are free to disagree.

As for how the Thieves Guild will handle internal disputes, that'll fall ultimately to WhiteMist and whoever else is put in charge of the project, if ever it does see the light of day.

I actually like the idea of a thieves guild.... An active one. Yes, there is one already and I've seen little done with it. But, there is an incintive. What shop sells thieves picks and other items useful to those of the larcenist heart?

So maybe run it as a business? I seem to remember thieves having special shoes and cloaks as well, though I've no idea who sells them. Perhaps some thought into new ideas for thiefly toys? Like flashbang noise maker's to distract guards? Can even be magical, though the SS may take offence.

But an incentive is what Jodice would look for to join a guild. She's done alright all by herself for the most part when I feel like playing her. So why share the spoils of her five finger discounts? ( This is IC reasoning. I totally support an active guild)

Also, thief based quest's can be damn near anything. Smuggling wine out of the the HoF's celler's .... Abducting slaves for ransom, Joint shop steals.... And that's off the top of my head.

The problem with that last is getting an IG interested to stop it. Just in case a roll is missed.

Thoughts?

People can band together to be self-serving, because they share a common goal, ideal or belief, see: http://www.correntewire.com/basic_socio ... p_behavior

That being said, the thieves guild can be great, just as any part of the game can be great, everyone here is incredibly talented at creating content.

Here is the caveat: There needs to be an active figure head,with an active group of 2-3 people that will work as a cohesive unit for a prolonged period of time. Otherwise, it will fizzle out, just as other facets of the game have.

In complete fairness, this is completely natural. The ebb and flow of creativity is impacted by variety and engagement. If you focus on one thing for far too long, you lose interest and your creative license wanes as a result. So, how do you propose this reboot would keep people engaged and active?

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, i merely ask to play devils advocate in hopes to spawn more great ideas.

P.S. Another thing to think about is the Order of the Unspoken within Umbara, as it pertains to Assassinations, there is some possible overlap here. It also seems to me, the thieves guild would probably avoid such a thing as assassinations bring attention.

-Augustus

A link for a link, and this one is TLI's morals. http://belariath.com/empire/personalhonor.html

Logolar wrote:See. TLI isn't the environment where people should band together. If they steal from a person, let that person deal with it. It shouldn't effect you. If they steal something where you both would benefit, then you step in. It effects you because of how your pay was effected. Then and only then is it ok for you to seek revenge against a person. This is not RL morals, and we have to remember it. This is a land where might makes right, and you are seen to be weak if you rely on others.

I agree with that from looking at the site, reading about the world, understanding how it all is designed and set up... but I disagree fully based on the actual play that occurs that I have seen beyond myself or been a part of. It's not a discussion for here in this thread in particular, but based off of the actual play that goes on IC and interactions, and seeing others likewise band together beyond the aspects of realism, the play that is current drastically varies from the initial design. And in ANY society where there exist underdogs or weaklings, the underdogs and weaklings WILL band together for comfort and strength, or find strong people to band with. That is society, real and fantasy alike, in a nutshell.

That said.. I reeeeally hope this revamp then can be one of those things that brings back the need for might, the dark, the theme that is the initial. The Thieves Guild has ALL that potential and then some. The dark dreary alleys are meant to instill fear for a reason... I want to help influence that reason.

If people want to band together, then backstabbing is always an option! And a fun one too.

I get that TLI has morals... and has a set design.. but have you noticed that not every player or character goes with that design? In all my time of playing here, half of what is stated to be the norm for in the game, like even with Herms being abominations or gray swans being snubbed and lower than other swans, is not how gameplay goes, even when the players of such have their characters fit with the standard.

That said.. guilds are guilds. They have a community base, no matter what. They are made of like-minded individuals who do all of this at once: help others, help themselves, help the guild.

That said, if this is how THIS guild is run, then that needs to be decided on and stated before ANYthing else is decided, because the ideals of the guild are what influence each and every other decision about how things are done.


Guild
[gild]
Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., especially one formed for mutual aid or protection.
2.
any of various medieval associations, as of merchants or artisans, organized to maintain standards and to protect the interests of its members, and that sometimes constituted a local governing body.


So that is the very definition of a guild. If it is anything else, it is NOT a guild, but merely using the world guild in namesake only in the guise of an organization of some other type.

That said.. seriously guys... there could be two different thief groups if that's the route people want to go. One run one way, one run another, rivals of the same territory. It sounds like there's conflict over what people want in a guild, two distinct desires. One for the loners, one for the banding together. It would inspire play for sure.

Kooky, those are some good ideas, but you are talking about ten steps in the future and I am still trying to make sure we all have our shoes on. Let's slow it down a bit and talk about what the basic foundation should be, not where it might could go in a couple of years time. I am not saying to abandon those notions, just keep them in the back of your head for a time when the foundations are already laid.

I am going to agree with Augustus on the idea that people NEED to be involved. There needs to be a dedicated presence for any group to really work out. Who those people will be, needs to be decided, but I hope that these ideas we have all discussed are very helpful to them. Right now, there seems to only be some slight disagreement about how punishments ought to happen when there is a conflict within the guild. That can be worked out in time and in response to the actual affront, so lets table that for now and let the people who are going to run the show decide how they might want to work it.

Other then that, I think the write up is in a good place and could be used as a "road map" to create something that is a lot of fun. That is the primary driving force behind TLI, after all. We are all here to have fun. Let's remember that in this discussion. It seems to me that, as it stands, there is a lot of good interest in what is proposed and so I think it would be of benefit of those in charge of updating such things to take the write-up for consideration and discussion. The "kicking people out" part can always be edited out or changed to fit the desired paradigm... but the write-up has some solid promise, in my opinion. I am happy with where we got it.

I guess that is my informal invitation to Sutara or Twerl to give this a good looking over and work their magic on it. (When time and situation allows, of course.)

Is this in the right forum? Should be in locations, shouldn't it? I can move it if ya want. I guess it's kinda about a class since it is thieves guild but I'm assuming more than just thieves would be able to join? Either way it is still a location.

If it would be better served in the locations forum, by all means feel free to move it to the place it belongs.

alrighty it's in the proper spot now here in locations. Make sure to tell everyone!

I did. But they never came so.. oh well.
Anyways, I guess For s&g I wonder if this was going forward, or...?

Is this still on? If so I have a character who would be interested.