MMR Price List Rework?

[Dante_Ambrogio]

I have been working on several of my characters recently and been purchasing weapons and I have noticed that some of the descriptions in the MMR list are wrong but more importantly I have noticed that there is not a lot of weapons in the list that low strength characters can use (meaning that newer characters are extremely limited)

I would like to rework the price list slightly but I would also like to expand and broaden it by adding some weapons that are not currently on the list and also work on building a separate list to be used for both the MMR as well as the shop that I have suggested https://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=24997 for if that shop were approved.

[Naomh]

I am curious as to what inaccuracies and errors you may be talking about. If you please I would like to see a list of them.

[Dante_Ambrogio]

Table: Carrying Capacity
Strength Score Light Load Medium Load Heavy Load

1| 3 lb. or less| 4–6 lb.| 7–10 lb.
2| 6 lb. or less| 7–13 lb.| 14–20 lb.
3| 10 lb. or less| 11–20 lb.| 21–30 lb.
4| 13 lb. or less| 14–26 lb.| 27–40 lb.
5| 16 lb. or less| 17–33 lb.| 34–50 lb.
6| 20 lb. or less| 21–40 lb.| 41–60 lb.
7| 23 lb. or less| 24–46 lb.| 47–70 lb.
8| 26 lb. or less| 27–53 lb.| 54–80 lb.
9| 30 lb. or less| 31–60 lb| 61–90 lb.
10| 33 lb. or less| 34–66 lb|. 67–100 lb.
11| 38 lb. or less| 39–76 lb.| 77–115 lb.
12| 43 lb. or less| 44–86 lb.| 87–130 lb.
13| 50 lb. or less| 51–100 lb.|101–150 lb.
14| 58 lb. or less| 59–116 lb.|117–175 lb.
15| 66 lb. or less| 67–133 lb.|134–200 lb.
16| 76 lb. or less| 77–153 lb.|154–230 lb.
17| 86 lb. or less| 87–173 lb.|174–260 lb.
18| 100 lb. or less| 101–200 lb.|201–300 lb.
19| 116 lb. or less| 117–233 lb.|234–350 lb.
20| 133 lb. or less| 134–266 lb.|267–400 lb.
21| 153 lb. or less| 154–306 lb.|307–460 lb.
22| 173 lb. or less| 174–346 lb.|347–520 lb.
23| 200 lb. or less| 201–400 lb.|401–600 lb.
24| 233 lb. or less| 234–466 lb.|467–700 lb.
25| 266 lb. or less| 267–533 lb.|534–800 lb.
26| 306 lb. or less| 307–613 lb.|614–920 lb.
27| 346 lb. or less| 347–693 lb.|694–1,040 lb.
28| 400 lb. or less| 401–800 lb.|801–1,200 lb.
29| 466 lb. or less| 467–933 lb.|934–1,400 lb.
+10| ×4| ×4| ×4|

I am going to borrow the carry weight chart from D&D 3.5 as an example here because its not actually too far off realistic levels, and then I will put my examples below.

Composite Long Bow
Description: A recurve bow made of wood laminated with other materials to stiffen and strengthen the limbs. Making this weapon more compact and more powerful than the regular long bow but requiring great strength to use. Preferred by mounted archers. Notes: Requires arrows to use. Enchantments placed upon this weapon such as +ATK stack with enchantments upon projectiles fired by this weapon.
Strength (STR) Required: 26
Attack Modifier: 5
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 250.00 Mehrials
The description of this and the name of this do not match up for one; the description is literally just the way that you create a Recurve Bow, honestly how you create most bows. As someone who used to professionally craft bows for the SCA a recurve bow is also easier to draw and are generally lighter than a standard Long Bow and as such would require LESS STR to use than a standard Longbow which tend to not only be longer and heavier but more awkward

Great Sword
Description: One of the largest of swords, challenged only by the buster sword in size, the great sword's full length including hilt and pommel is roughly as long as the wielder is tall. The straight double-edged blade is is dull along the first quarter nearest the hilt allowing the wielder an additional handhold for better leverage and control in a fight. Large in size, well-balanced with the flexibility it offers in a fight makes the Great Sword arguably the most superior of all bladed weapons.
Strength (STR) Required: 36
Attack Modifier: 8
Equipment Slots Used: 2
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: D
Price: 450.00 Mehrials
The STR requirement here is absolutely ridiculous, yes Great Swords are heavier weapons but for someone that weighs around 250 pounds and stands roughly 6 feet tall the maximum weight of a Great Sword (which are always fitted to the wielder) would be somewhere between 20-25lbs (perhaps 30 depending upon materials chosen by the wielder if it was a custom ordered blade as the materials in the hilt also contribute to the weight and serve as a counter-balance to the blade)

Heavy Cross Bow
Description: A more powerful version of the crossbow providing for better range and damage, practically a portable ballista. Due to this added power a portable winch is required to draw the string back and arm the weapon, making it slow and cumbersome to arm. Notes: Takes one turn to load before it can be fired. Can be loaded before combat.
Strength (STR) Required: 22
Attack Modifier: 5
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 210.00 Mehrials
The STR of this crossbow is also absolutely ridiculous (once again I know how to craft this weapon and I have used them in actual combat) the heavy crossbow is not only heavier but even in this description it has a winch (which is typically a crank mechanism) which does the work of pulling the string back for its wielder and a strength of 22 is in no way what would be required to turn that crank, it is a tight mechanism but it is not difficult to crank (someone who never leaves their computer and is a scrawny nerd type with no muscle can turn it; albeit with some difficulty)

Hand Axe
Description: A smaller hatchet-like axe. Designed to be wielded in one hand and balanced to be effective in both melee and as a thrown weapon. Notes: Can be thrown. Not usable by Rangers.
Strength (STR) Required: 8
Attack Modifier: 2
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? No
Weapon Class: B
Price: 45.00 Mehrials
Why is this not able to be used by Rangers exactly?? Most Rangers would carry axes because they still have to survive in the wilderness which means cutting through wood at some point and they are supposed to be the penultimate survivalists.

Long Bow
Description: A basic bow that gets its strength from its size, that is being roughly the height of the user. Notes: Requires arrows to use. Enchantments placed upon this weapon such as +ATK stack with enchantments upon projectiles fired by this weapon.
Strength (STR) Required: 18
Attack Modifier: 3
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 150.00 Mehrials
What in the blazes is this Strength requirement?? Is this long bow made for a friggin’ giant? No normal person could draw a Bow with this sort of STR; this is like saying that your average person in the world has a STR stat of 18 (which in dungeons and dragons terms means that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the world is walking around with pecs and forearms like Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson or Jason Momoa, average farmers and peasants, and even regular soldiers would not be able to use these weapons, nor can most first level adventurers unless they just dump stat STR and ignore everything else)

Morning Star
Description: A mace with the addition of spikes to add a little stabby with the smashy.
Strength (STR) Required: 10
Attack Modifier: 3
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? No
Weapon Class: B
Price: 55.00 Mehrials
The STR requirement here is still kinda high, I mean… its not as ridiculous as some of the other weapons I have pointed out but… it’s a mace with spikes. The regular mace requires 8 STR, adding spikes would not add so much weight to the weapon that it would jump up two full STR points as when adding the spikes, typically you are not adding metal to it, you are mostly just changing the shape of the head by melting the original head down and pouring the molten metal into a mold.

Lance
Description: The Lance in its most basic form is a sturdy spear long enough to be effective against foes when mounted, be it on horse, jhore, mephos or other rideable beasts. A small circular plate where one holds the weapon is a common addition to help prevent one's hand from sliding up the weapon when giving your point at charging speeds. While overlong and awkward, it can still be used to a lesser effect when on foot.Notes: Doubles as a spear (ATK 3) when dismounted. Not usable by Rangers.
Strength (STR) Required: 22
Attack Modifier: 5
Equipment Slots Used: 2
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? Yes
Weapon Class: C
Price: 90.00 Mehrials
22 STR? Its literally a long wooden pole with a bit of metal on the end of it, and generally the wielder is using a shield on the same arm for protection. Honestly, this isn’t even a weapon you typically see outside of a tournament arena because it’s just friggin impractical. They weight 5-7 lbs in most cases and all you do is wrist work to hold it steady while you charge on horseback toward your opponent. There is a heavy lance that weighs up to 15lb that was meant for horse cavalry to use in battlefield situation but even so that is not a STR of 22

Scimitar
Description: A single-edged one-handed sword, roughly between short sword and long sword in length, with a curve that starts halfway down the blade. Useful for cutting and slashing and popular among those of the desert regions of Sha'shir and Har'Amrun.
Strength (STR) Required: 10
Attack Modifier: 3
Equipment Slots Used: 1
Number of Uses: 0 (0 = unlimited)
Two-Handed? No
Weapon Class: B
Price: 60.00 Mehrials
The Scimitar was made to be a more dextrous and agile weapon to be used in the deserts of the middle east so that combatants could maneuver around the fact that near everyone wore loose clothing which could make sword work impractical, additionally it is a sharper blade than most western blades, but it is very very lightweight compared to say the Longsword, Bastard, or many of the other Western Weapons. and it is one that is ideal for cutting through Leather or Reed armor because it is often sharpened to a razor edge. A STR requirement of 10 is a little bit on the high side for a blade like this and indicates that in TLI it is much heavier than it actually should be.

These are only a few of the for instances, but they are some of the most glaring ones I have seen.

[miyuka]

It's meant to be limiting. What's with the chart at the top of the post with the lbs? I am not sure I understand what's being portrayed by it. But I believe you are saying that the str requirements for wapons don't match up with real world type things. Str in this game isn't measured by pounds in the way I believe you are portraying. In fact the str stat is honestly just a measure of in combat prowess. All stats are like that. They are not 1:1 rpresentation of a characters actual strength of agility or speed or resistance or stamina. If that was the case Miyuka would be able to melt minds with her ridiculous int of 420 and a pixie in her small form would be able to beat yuka in an arm wrestling contest as she (up until recently) had all of 3 str.

Belariath is not D&D. The combat system is not robust in that sense. We are RP first for better and for worse and tat's not going to change until SB himself decides to change the game. stats are just numbers, a representation of what your char can do, certainly, but again, not on a 1:1 basis. It's a very simple system.

[Dante_Ambrogio]

It's meant to be limiting. What's with the chart at the top of the post with the lbs? I am not sure I understand what's being portrayed by it. But I believe you are saying that the str requirements for wapons don't match up with real world type things. Str in this game isn't measured by pounds in the way I believe you are portraying. In fact the str stat is honestly just a measure of in combat prowess. All stats are like that. They are not 1:1 rpresentation of a characters actual strength of agility or speed or resistance or stamina. If that was the case Miyuka would be able to melt minds with her ridiculous int of 420 and a pixie in her small form would be able to beat yuka in an arm wrestling contest as she (up until recently) had all of 3 str.

Belariath is not D&D. The combat system is not robust in that sense. We are RP first for better and for worse and tat's not going to change until SB himself decides to change the game. stats are just numbers, a representation of what your char can do, certainly, but again, not on a 1:1 basis. It's a very simple system.

The chart was a for instance and STR if used a matter of combat prowess should not factor into the ability to wield a weapon at that point; there is zero reason whatsoever for the system as it stands for weapons that are lighter to require such ridiculous Str that they would not be wieldable by someone.

"It's meant to be limiting" - what in the nine hells is this even supposed to mean?? Because, as the list stands currently its so ridiculously "limiting" that low level characters literally have less than 10 choices for weapons which isn't even remotely fair to them, RP combat or actual dice combat IC. That needs a hell of a lot better explanation than this BS and yes, I am gonna call it exactly what the hell it is.

Belariath doesn't need a robust combat system to have weapons listed at realistic STR requirements to wield them; though honestly I am probably just wasting my time even typing this response or any other post or suggestion, or request, or anything else. Not one of them is going to go anywhere because once again I am just gonna get cockblocked by the one that is against changing the game because "that's how it's always been"

[Akaton]

I try to stay out of things. And for the most part I do. But right now, you are coming off both whiny and as kind of a dick.

Its obvious you don't like how things are, but I don't see once here you offering a write up on how to change it, nor even making at the minimum a reasonable suggestion. What it looks like is you saying this "I don't like how this works, so change it." without offering any sort of change for it. I have been here with this game for 10 years now. I have seen changes made, when someone actually puts forth a proposition that was written out and presented as an alternative.

Secondly in my time here, you cannot compare this to another game system. This is and will always be its own thing. Also trying to apply real life logic to this fantasy game setting, it doesn't work.

[Tawny]

Ditto to what Zully said.

[miyuka]

Agreed with what Zully and Tawny said...and as I have said before. What I say here isn't in my end all be all capacity as the head of dev. This is just my thoughts. A rather MASSIVE portion of this game exists because player ideas. Do we use everything? NO. That would be insane. Just because I don't think something is a good idea doesn't mean I just instantly shut it down. Half the magic system exists that I didn't think would be a good fit is here in this game. Myself and SB don't agree on everything, but I sure as heck understand that this is his game, and his world and as a member of the dev team (regardless of if I'm it's head or not) that what I do is try to work within the limits of his game and his vision. So no, I don't "cockblock" anything that gets put up in these forums and in fact I bring things DIRECTLY to the attention of HC when people take the time to write things up or bring up points that needs addressed. If HC says no after that, then that's that. However, I didn't say one thing about shutting down this idea you had. I wanted to further understand what it was you are trying to portray because as pointed out, it seems more like complaining than anything else, which is fair. There were possible merits in the post but if you are going to continue in this manner, I shall move on.

And limiting. Yes. Many things in this game are limiting. Low level players don't start out with access to everything. That goes for weapons, armour, magic skills, special items and what they can buy. And as far as I'm aware, that's the whole point.

[Neko Nightstalker]

small note as well, the str requirement isn't just the ability to hold the weapon, but also weild it effectivly. a keyboard nerd could easily hold a great sword. doesn't mean he can swing it around.

[Dante_Ambrogio]

I try to stay out of things. And for the most part I do. But right now, you are coming off both whiny and as kind of a dick.

Its obvious you don't like how things are, but I don't see once here you offering a write up on how to change it, nor even making at the minimum a reasonable suggestion. What it looks like is you saying this "I don't like how this works, so change it." without offering any sort of change for it. I have been here with this game for 10 years now. I have seen changes made, when someone actually puts forth a proposition that was written out and presented as an alternative.

Secondly in my time here, you cannot compare this to another game system. This is and will always be its own thing. Also trying to apply real life logic to this fantasy game setting, it doesn't work.

This entire thread is me offering to do a rewrite of the price list, or actually more properly I suppose it is me asking for permission because since returning from my LoA it has seemed like that is how things need to work. I am not going to waste the time and effort to rework the list only to have it go nowhere.

I will admit that I came off as a dick in my last reply though to be honest I have a valid reason considering nearly 2/3 of the things that I have suggested have gotten the answer of "things have always been this way and I don't think it should be changed" (forgive the paraphrase and summary because I am not going to actually find the quote); they have gotten this answer despite the fact that there has been interest from the players of the game, including from L or Stormbringer. It is just a bit frustrating and discouraging.

But back to the point of this thread; if there is interest in actually seeing a full rework then I will compile one.

small note as well, the str requirement isn't just the ability to hold the weapon, but also weild it effectivly. a keyboard nerd could easily hold a great sword. doesn't mean he can swing it around.

- As to this here, STR is a poor judgement of this but I have left the fact that its being used alone, my problem is that the STR requirements of many of the weapons is too high to be even remotely realistic, and the argument that you can't apply realism to fantasy is incorrect altogether. Fantasy should have enough realism that it suspends the disbelief. What I am wanting to do is make some small adjustments, nothing over the top or game-breaking, not give starting characters access to every weapon, just some small adjustments to allow a slightly broader reach of some simple weapons which don't make sense to be where they currently sit.