Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Questions and suggestions for additions or changes to these topics

Moderators: Stormbringer, Ehlanna

Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby UnderTow on Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:15 am

Hello Everyone,

I know, the topic of Warrior-Mage is a delicate one, but I would like to toss my two-cents into this debate and offer a few suggestions for improvement as well as point out the things I feel should stay the same.

Disclaimer: Some of my dialogue in this post is meant for humor purposed, I mean no offense by any of it but since we play this game for fun why not make the post fun also?

Topic #1: Knights aka. How to fail at your job.

I could give a huge copy/paste of the Knights abilities and the WaM's restrictions but I shall quickly simplify. Knight have an advantage called Honor's Aegis which gives them bonus Close Physical Defense. They also have a disadvantage called Strength of Word and Steel which states they only get that bonus from Honor's Aegis if they are in all metal armor (no problem) and if they are wielding a shield (hey wait a minute...).

WaM can wear all mithril armor, so meeting the metal requirement is no problem. BUT, and this is a Fugly on date night sized Butt, WaMs cannot use shields of any kind. So the advanced class cancels the advantage of the basic class almost entirely.

Topic #1 Solution: WaMs as Swash-Bucklers

The buckler and targe are both Class A shields that even mages can use. It does not prevent spell casing at all. The buckler/targe would then open up the Knight's special advantage and make the combo actually viable once more.

Topic #2: I'm like a Mage, but worse!

Now, we all know that a WaM is not supposed to be even close to as powerful in magic to a Mage, and the aren't. They have access to the Arcana school which is about 30% Mage only spells, but that is still a lot of cool spells they gain access to, and a slightly lackluster WaM only spell, but still cool beans! However, when we looks at what is supposed to set a WaM apart, their equipment, we see a tragic tale of being a Jack of no trades and a master of turds.

Good Equipment Choices for Mages:

Targe: DEF 2
Mithril Coif: DEF 1
Mithril Greaves: DEF 1, ATK 1
Mithril Vambraces: DEF 1
Gambeson: DEF 1
Robes of the Archmagi: DEF 5 RES +2

Total Defense: DEF 11, ATK 1, RES +2 w/o enchantment
Total Strength Req: 17
Cost: 1875 Mhls

Good Equipment Choices for WaM (Including "special" armor that only WaMs can cast in):

Visored Helm: DEF 2
Mithril Greaves: DEF 1
Mithril Vambraces: DEF 1
Mithril Gauntlets: DEF 1, ATK 1
Gambeson: DEF 1
Mithril Half-Plate: DEF 5

Total Defense: DEF 11, ATK 1 w/o enchantment
Total Strength Req: 27
Cost: 2675 Mhls

That is an extra 800 mhls for the same DEF and 2 less RES on gear that takes 10 more Strength to even carry.

The jack of all trades advanced class is worse geared that the Mage in EVERY WAY other than weapons. And, honestly, how often do Mages rely on weapons? Never, that's when.

Topic #2 Solution: Boost dem numbas, yo

The easiest solution to this dilemma is to just boost the DEF numbers on the Mithril Half-Plate, or allow bucklers and targes for WaMs. The fact Mithril Half-Plate is on the exact same level as the Robes of the Arch Magi (DEF 5) but the Robes of the Arch Magi both cost less and offer and additional +2 RES for free is ridiculous. If nothing else the half plate should get boosted, or a WaM in full mithril armor should get a boosted DEF rating. Alternatively, Robes of the Arch Magi's DEF rating could be lowered.

In Short...

Everything a Wam can do, a Mage can do better... except use weapons they don't need, nor want to.

In its current state the WaM is a trap class, offering versatility but falling well short of delivering on that promise.

The loss of casting spells while heavily armored, or the ability to cast spells through melee weapons, made this class lose it's uniqueness, and its amazing strength. The class WAS overpowered before, there is no doubt about that. But the current incarnation was nerfed way too hard.
UnderTow
Novice
Novice
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:16 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby crow on Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:44 am

Amusing, I never realized Warrior-Mages can't use shields.

I'm confused as to why you think Warrior-Mage should be combined with Knight? As far as I can see, the only way you can even end up with a Warrior-Mage/Knight is to pick warrior-mage at 10, and knight at 15 instead of advancing warrior-mage again, which is a questionable idea at the best of times.
(And perhaps impossible all together. Depending on advancement to Warrior-Mage is even handled now. Do people go Warrior1/Mage1 and become Warrior-Mage1 or do they become Warrior-Mage1/mage1 or Warrior-Mage1/warrior1? I think it's the latter these days so you wouldn't even be able to be a Warrior-Mage1/Knight1)

In the armor department, there's nothing stopping a Warrior-Mage from using the robe of arch magi. So that quickly evens out the res, cost and weight. You're not forced to put on armor of the heaviest variety you can find, sometimes the lower options are just better. Now the logic of that might be subject to question, but that's not a Warrior-Mage issue.

Everything a Wam can do, a Mage can do better... except use weapons they don't need, nor want to.

Yes. That is literally what a Warrior-Mage signs up for. You can use magic, but the mage will be better at it. You can use weapons better, and the mage won't care about using weapons cause he can throw fire with his bare hands.

Mind, I never really got the logic of WANTING to be a warrior-mage either. It's like being a bard without the snazzy guitar and slightly less tasteful clothes. To to be fair, you get a cool sounding class name, fancy shiny armor, more stats that usual, and a sporting build-in handicap. =D>

Edit:
It occurs to me that you are a Knight1/Warrior-Mage5. I guess you might have been grandfathered in? Currently, Knight is not one of the possible prerequisites for Warrior-Mage. I suppose that would end up causing a bit of friction with the new mechanics.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby UnderTow on Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:50 pm

The main issue is that a Warrior-Mage is supposed to be better at fighting than a mage, but worse than a warrior. But also be better at casting than a warrior but worse than a mage. Right now they ARE better at casting than warriors, having access to the arcana school of magic so no change needed there. However, they can only armor up at an equal level with a mage, their "special" armor options are not special at all, and at most can us a weapon with just 2 more ATK than what a Mage can (Mithril Pick vs Mithril Bastard Sword).

The flip side to the defensive arguement is to look at warriors...

Body Plate w/ Winged Helm: DEF 13, ATK1, AGI +2
Gamebson: DEF 1
Tower Shield: DEF 4

Total Defense: DEF 18, ATK 1, AGI +2 (AGI is huge since it is used on almost every defense roll) w/o enchantment
Total Strength Req: 50
Cost: 2200 Mhls

It STILL costs less than the WaM, but does have almost twice the strength requirement. But with that comes 7 extra DEF (A huge increase) and +2 AGI which is a sizable advantage to both attack and defense. That is the equivalent of 9 extra defense toward all defensive rolls other the close magic defense.
UnderTow
Novice
Novice
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:16 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby Menhir on Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:47 pm

One thing to take into consideration, is the WaM's class stat bonuses of 6 str 6 int 4 agi 4 res 3 life (which I believe is the highest all around stat bonuses of any other class? I could be wrong here)
Also of note: Qualifying Classes: Must possess Dual-Class status, combining Mage with either Ranger, Warrior or Bard so yes, initial concept of Knight/Warrior-Mage isn't an option anyway. Or shouldn't be, outside of perhaps certain extenuating circumstances. I would suggest not getting a reset because you won't be able to do that again heh.
Name Undertow`
Sex male
Race Albino Moriel (Dark Elf)
Class Knight/Warrior-Magex5

*to Crow: Advancement is warrior/mage/ranger/bard base class, then progress to warrior-mage/base class at level 10, and from there you can only advance warrior-mage or the base class every 5 levels so Knight wouldn't even come up as an option.*

Personally, I am a Drak'sen WaM so I am getting gutted even further by the inability to wear any 'plate' body armor so your mithril half-plate isn't an option (because of race blurb about metal chafing on scales which I think is pretty retarded because it doesn't stop drak'sen from wearing chain which literally hangs against the flesh if not padded where as plate is a 'shell' of sorts that does have empty air between the skin and metal of the armor), nor are helmets of any type (because of horns).

I use the following:
Mithril circlet 0 def +3 int
Mithril vambraces +1 def
Mithril greaves +1 def
RotAM +5 def +2 res
(haven't gotten around to getting a gambeson because I only recently found out that actually stacks with other body armor but I'll throw it in here because it's something I am considering)
Gambeson +1

(also something to note, basic Vambraces and Greaves are considered 'metal', and as such a warrior mage -can not- wear them, because the -only- metal armor a warrior mage can wear is Mithril)


so as a drak'sen warrior mage I get, from my choice of armor, 8 base armor ... yay?
I prefer the RotAM because of the +2 res like you said (and also because of the drak'sen issue with wearing plate armor)
I prefer the mithril circlet because the +3 int is a much better bonus, imo, than a measly +1 def (and I can't wear helmets because of drak'sen horns)

So, to bolster this I have +15 def enchantments
I also have +10 physical armor spell, +10 magical armor spell and use them situationally depending on what sort of opponent I am fighting.
As a drak'sen, I -do- get the perk of being able to use the Glimmer Tail spell which is a physical armor spell that -does- stack with other armor spells but it is a -huge- drain on stamina (1+2 per slot cast) and it is in the arcana sphere of magic so that's one beneficial spell that I am able to make use of.

So at the -very- maximum (as of this write up, and if I use the gambeson's +1 that I don't actually have IC at the moment) I could get 8 + 15 + 10 + 5 (glimmer tail slots available atm) = 38 physical at the cost of 2 rounds of preparation and 22 stamina for activating spells/enchants, or 25 magical defense with the cost of 1 round of prep and 11 stamina for enchant activation.

Biggest perk of a warrior mage is supposed to be the ability to choose to target their opponents weakest side.

Run into someone with strong physical capabilities, hit'em with spells that bypass armor and make'em roll vs weaker stats such as int or res. Such as ranphy (to force a roll vs int stat) or clo/ran mag (to force roll vs res which will likely be lower than agility for most physical types because clophy fighters stack str, agi with res 3rd)
Run into someone with strong magical capabilities, hit'em with things that force them to roll physical stats such as str or agi. Such as clophy (which forces them to roll vs agi which almost all magic types ignore) or clomag (which forces a roll vs str again another that most all magic types ignore because they want to boost their glass cannon pew pew)
Menhir
Adept
Adept
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 3:47 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby Amara on Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:27 pm

I was going to say some things here but Crow and Menhir touched base on it already.

When topics like this come up - I hear these words echoed in head in the voice of Sutara, lol - "Life isn't fair.. ingame fantasy world isn't fair"

You pick what you pick - :D

You're a special case Undertow - You could request a reset but like the Draksen pointed out, you'd lose the Knight.

Here's something to look at that was posted up in 2011: viewtopic.php?f=220&t=10149&p=67898 and to requoute Sut's:

lyllamarie wrote:You didn't pick a Warrior. You picked a hybrid of a physical and magical Class. These are the concessions we make for doing such.


There's been a lot of talk about it floating around on and off. They haven't come up for review yet in Dev. I'd suggest to you and every other WaM to keep making notes and when it comes time for the Dev team to put them up for player input - hit us with it, hehehe.
Avatar courtesy of: Lucky/Isilindil: viewtopic.php?p=136186#p136186

"If my heart could beat, it'd beat for you." Valley of Silence

Image


"And yet you did not chose me blindly. Certain expectations were aroused.
Let's not be coy; you were hoping I would satisfy all the desires you're
too shy to name, or at least show you a good time." The Crimson Petal and the White
User avatar
Amara
Predominate
Predominate
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:16 am
Location: Umbara

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby UnderTow on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:22 pm

I guess my ultimate question, and the one that hasn't been touched on, is why can Mages use shields but WaMs can't? If anything that restriction should be reversed. I woud give the WaM the defensive edge over Mages while still being weaker at spells and help to shore up some of the WaM's weakness.
UnderTow
Novice
Novice
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:16 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby crow on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:43 pm

UnderTow` wrote:I guess my ultimate question, and the one that hasn't been touched on, is why can Mages use shields but WaMs can't? If anything that restriction should be reversed. I woud give the WaM the defensive edge over Mages while still being weaker at spells and help to shore up some of the WaM's weakness.

Oh, I'm in favor of taking shields away from all magic classes and giving them to WAM instead. It makes sense, and lord knows mages could do with a little less physical defense. :)

It does seem really weird that Warriors can use shields, Mages can use shields, but Warrior-Mages cannot use shields. The logic utterly escapes me because the only way that makes sense is if Mages could not use shields and you were inheriting the mage's flaw, as opposed to growing an entirely new one.

Also, this is somewhat moot but, you can't treat 2 extra agi as +2 def. (you could argue for equivalency to +1def though, which btw also goes for +2res.)

At the end of the day, in the spirit of unfairness carrying over from the real world into the fantasy world, magic classes are more powerful than physical classes by design. So, really, you should expect your mage to be less powerful than a mage if you add a dash of warrior to your mage. :wink:
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby Amara on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:58 pm

UnderTow` wrote:I guess my ultimate question, and the one that hasn't been touched on, is why can Mages use shields but WaMs can't? If anything that restriction should be reversed. I woud give the WaM the defensive edge over Mages while still being weaker at spells and help to shore up some of the WaM's weakness.



I think Crow answered it with:


crow wrote:
At the end of the day, in the spirit of unfairness carrying over from the real world into the fantasy world, magic classes are more powerful than physical classes by design. So, really, you should expect your mage to be less powerful than a mage if you add a dash of warrior to your mage. :wink:


I love seeing these thoughts - so keep them coming just remember to stick them under the Dev team's nose when they come up for review.
Avatar courtesy of: Lucky/Isilindil: viewtopic.php?p=136186#p136186

"If my heart could beat, it'd beat for you." Valley of Silence

Image


"And yet you did not chose me blindly. Certain expectations were aroused.
Let's not be coy; you were hoping I would satisfy all the desires you're
too shy to name, or at least show you a good time." The Crimson Petal and the White
User avatar
Amara
Predominate
Predominate
 
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:16 am
Location: Umbara

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:06 pm

After a fair bit of consideration on this topic I have come up with a fairly reasonable argument in favor of a desperately needed re-design...

What if someone made a Warrior Mage, without going WaM?

Take Knight/Warrior x1 and Mage x6 (or any other advanced class Mage can advance into)

You can use the full set of armor I had detailed earlier for Mages, including the shield. If you went Knight that targe will further increase your defense by an additional point to make you completely equal to what a WaM can wear.

In addition, that one level of Warrior or Knight opens up access to almost all weapons (Crystal sword being the exception). This includes two handed weapons, such as greatswords and bows.

In addition you get access to the full arcana sphere.. or whatever specialty sphere you choose from your advanced class. You aren't as good at casting them as a purist, but you have far more availability than a WaM gets.

What does that give WaMs?

More stat points every 5 levels from level 10 up to level 30. That's it. In every other way they are weaker than NOT going WaM in the first place.

I know that the mantra of "The world isn't fair" is a fine one to go by.. but shouldn't an advanced class be more advanced than a combination of two basic ones?
UnderTow
Novice
Novice
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:16 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby crow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:14 pm

What if someone made a Warrior Mage, without going WaM?

Well...

The sheer power of the fact that you are not shackled with the quite frankly crippling "The Cosmic Balance" disadvantage would instantly make you a better Warrior_Mage than the Warrior-Mage.

But I've laughed at that more than enough already. ^^

What does that give WaMs?

Depending on how you do it:
Mage: Int+3 Res+2 Sta+3 Lfe+1 Slo+3 = 9 *5=45
F-Mage: Int+12 Res+3 Lfe+3 = 18 *5=90
WAM: Str+6 Int+6 Agi+4 Res+4 Lfe+3 = 23 *5=115

About 11(*5=55) more points that a mage, or
about 5(*5=25) more points than a Fire Mage.

I know that the mantra of "The world isn't fair" is a fine one to go by.. but shouldn't an advanced class be more advanced than a combination of two basic ones?

I think that's a good point.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby Menhir on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:51 am

pretty sure the No shields thing is because, lore wise, the warrior-mage is holding their weapon in one hand, and casting out of the other hand.

As far as the 'cosmic balance', I personally believe that having balanced stats is the best overall track to take (especially in the long term) considering the wide range of potential combat situations that a warrior-mage would get into, requiring stats that can defend against a wide variety of potential aggressors.

Unless you're looking to be a glass cannon. in which case you would just go full on mage anyway and dump all your stats into two stats which determine your hit chance. But also remember that no matter what the dice turn out to be, you can never do more than 50 points of damage in one hit anyway and rarely do that unless your numbers vs their def are astronomically out of proportion and, as a glass cannon mage, if you dump all your stats into two attack based stats, you're leaving yourself wide open for someone such as a warrior mage to play against your weaknesses and make it so you only have one viable stat in a defense roll and potentially get numbers equatable to your own.


So someone for example making a ranged magic attack:
ranmagatk: INT RES -1+1p/spell slot
ranmagdef: RES AGI -2 sta
say with stats ... str 6 (minimum I think to wear basic armor) agi 30 int 130 res 130 (Just pulling numbers out of my ass for this)

they -could- roll a 260 max roll to hit vs a poor defense but even if the variance is 200, the max damage they can do is 50 and there's still a good chance it'll be less than that.

meanwhile if they were fighting a warrior mage, the warrior-mage would retaliate with an attack that would make the mage rely on a str and either res or int (such as a clomagatk which is :
clomagatk: INT STR -1+1p/spell slot
clomagdef: RES STR -2 sta)
so that glass cannon with the 130 res could only get a max of 136 on the defense which could very well end up causing them to take equivalent damage.

basically what I'm saying is, the more specialized your stats get, the more weaknesses you show. Unless you are just such a high level that it doesn't matter unless you're fighting a noble. In which case the -real- argument becomes " Should there be level caps." which is an entirely different can of worms. Because of the unlimited level scaling potential of long term players, there's a point where they become untouchable except other ancient characters who've been in action for 10 years etc and anyone else can go sit on a rusty spike.

IE (and I'm not going to do this myself because at the moment it's two am and I'm on my second 40oz of beer) I would challenge someone to compare / contrast a WaM at level 30 (unenchanted w/kit centric to the class IE mithril as available to a human race) compared to a Warrior at level 30 with same prereqs, and a Mage at level 30 with same, and then a Magex2/Warriorx3 or a Warriorx3/Magex2 just to see how they stack up.
Menhir
Adept
Adept
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 3:47 am

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby miyuka on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:26 pm

What Menhir said. I do believe that is the reason they don't have shield access (not to mention the whole 2 handed weapon thing). I'm sure that was the idea behind it. Interesting thoughts all around. WaM currently isn't up for review, but if/when it does please remember to link back to this thread.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby crow on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:55 pm

Menhir wrote:pretty sure the No shields thing is because, lore wise, the warrior-mage is holding their weapon in one hand, and casting out of the other hand.

Probably true, but it is unfortunate that a tweak for flavor ended up a flat disadvantage with no means to counterbalance it.

As far as the 'cosmic balance', I personally believe that having balanced stats is the best overall track to take (especially in the long term) considering the wide range of potential combat situations that a warrior-mage would get into, requiring stats that can defend against a wide variety of potential aggressors.

A common misconception.

One which certainly feels right, and no doubt was the intention for the class, but does not mathematically hold up. Since you've gone and let the genie out of the bottle, I'll take that as an open invitation for me to have some fun and demonstrate. >:D

Unless you're looking to be a glass cannon. in which case you would just go full on mage anyway and dump all your stats into two stats which determine your hit chance.

The term 'glass cannon' implies that your defenses suffer as a consequence of doing this.
However, the defensive stats of a Warrior-Mage are exactly as bad as a 'glass cannon', and only lack the firepower.

Suppose we're looking at lvl 30ish, with about 300 stat points to go around.
The stats are: Str/Int/Dex/Res
Warrior-Mage(WM): 75/75/75/75 = 300
Glass-Cannon(GC): 10/140/10/140 = 300

First, let's grab the defense rolls for these two.

WM RanMagDef = 75+75=150
GC RanMagDef = 10+140=150

Next, let's compare them both to an enemy WM who's making a RanMagAtk. We'll neglect the +atk and +def under the assumption both are +15.

Wam RanMagAtk= 75+75=150 (Very convenient.)

WM 150(75+75) vs 150(75+75):
Chance of being hit: 50%
Average difference: 18
Average damage: 9.5

GC 150(10+140) vs 150(75+75):
Chance of being hit: 50%
Average difference: 22
Average damage: 11.5

There we go. Both the WM and GC have the exact same chance of being hit. Higher variance due to the skewed stats however means the GC will take 2 more damage on average. Not exactly the crippling difference in defense you would expect between a War-Mage and a Glass-Cannon though, now is it?

But also remember that no matter what the dice turn out to be, you can never do more than 50 points of damage in one hit anyway and rarely do that unless your numbers vs their def are astronomically out of proportion and, as a glass cannon mage, if you dump all your stats into two attack based stats, you're leaving yourself wide open for someone such as a warrior mage to play against your weaknesses and make it so you only have one viable stat in a defense roll and potentially get numbers equatable to your own.

let's see if this claim of equatable numbers holds up when we look at the math of what happens when we allow the GC to attack the WM, shall we?

So someone for example making a ranged magic attack:
ranmagatk: INT RES -1+1p/spell slot
ranmagdef: RES AGI -2 sta
say with stats ... str 6 (minimum I think to wear basic armor) agi 30 int 130 res 130 (Just pulling numbers out of my ass for this)

they -could- roll a 260 max roll to hit vs a poor defense but even if the variance is 200, the max damage they can do is 50 and there's still a good chance it'll be less than that.

meanwhile if they were fighting a warrior mage, the warrior-mage would retaliate with an attack that would make the mage rely on a str and either res or int (such as a clomagatk which is :
clomagatk: INT STR -1+1p/spell slot
clomagdef: RES STR -2 sta)
so that glass cannon with the 130 res could only get a max of 136 on the defense which could very well end up causing them to take equivalent damage.

I tried to look at this example you gave, but you don't even have the stats for the hypothetical WM. So I'll go ahead and use the previous WM and GC I've defined above.

We've previously looked at what numbers the WM can expect when attacking a GC. As a quick reminder: 50% chance of being hit, and about 11.5 damage per hit. (Or 5.75 damage per attack.)

Now let's have see what happens when GCs attack WMs.

GC RanMagAtk = 140+140=280

WM RanMagDef = 75+75=150 (as before)

WM 150(75+75) vs 280(140+140):
Chance of being hit: 80%
Average difference: 70
Average damage: 25.5 (As damage die only go up to 50)

That's about 20.5 damage per attack vs the 5.5 damage per attack of a WM. Four times as powerful. To say that these numbers obliterate the WM is being too kind.

basically what I'm saying is, the more specialized your stats get, the more weaknesses you show.

As I've said before, this is a common misconception that makes intuiative sense.
But when you actually do the math, not just go with your gut feeling. As we saw above, the actual numbers are not even close to equal.

Unless you are just such a high level that it doesn't matter unless you're fighting a noble. In which case the -real- argument becomes " Should there be level caps." which is an entirely different can of worms. Because of the unlimited level scaling potential of long term players, there's a point where they become untouchable except other ancient characters who've been in action for 10 years etc and anyone else can go sit on a rusty spike.

An interesting discussion to have on it's own. Though well outside of the scope of this thread.

IE (and I'm not going to do this myself because at the moment it's two am and I'm on my second 40oz of beer) I would challenge someone to compare / contrast a WaM at level 30 (unenchanted w/kit centric to the class IE mithril as available to a human race) compared to a Warrior at level 30 with same prereqs, and a Mage at level 30 with same, and then a Magex2/Warriorx3 or a Warriorx3/Magex2 just to see how they stack up.

Is the above sufficient for the challenge?


In conclusion: cosmic balance is the cruelest handicap in the game. The only counter argument appears to be "Lol, dice R random! You cantz math random." :roll:
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby miyuka on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:29 am

Oh great. This again? Very well. I'll just say this. Yes there are many aspects of the game that are unbalanced. This isn't an e-sport or some thing. Will we try to balance some things? Sure! Will we ever achieve true balance? No. Will we please everyone? No. For those that feel it's too much of a handicap and are in it for the combat then all I can say at this point in time is, play a different class that suits your idea of what is the strongest. This is an RP site first and foremost so most people will choose things based off that. This isn't to say stop this discussion or any such thing. As a matter of fact, keep up the discussions and bring this stuff back up when the time rolls around for this class to be looked at again, but just know that 1) be tactful and mindful of what you say to each other during these discussions. Not everyone sees the world (the game world) the same way others do. In the end it is all about having fun within the rules and constraints of the game. There are some things that can be changed and there are some things that are set in stone and will only be changed when SB himself allows it to be so. Also note that changes will be slow. This isn't any of our jobs and the people on DEV are here to have fun just like anyone else.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!

Re: Warrior-Mages: The Other Magic Meat

Postby crow on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:09 am

miyuka wrote:Oh great. This again?

I was provoked, your honor. ^.~

In fairness, it's on topic, and it's been like over a year since this last time. That's reasonably spaced out, right? ^^

Very well. I'll just say this. Yes there are many aspects of the game that are unbalanced. This isn't an e-sport or some thing. Will we try to balance some things? Sure! Will we ever achieve true balance? No. Will we please everyone? No. For those that feel it's too much of a handicap and are in it for the combat then all I can say at this point in time is, play a different class that suits your idea of what is the strongest.

=D>

This is an RP site first and foremost so most people will choose things based off that.

Absolutely, and that's perfectly fine. I'd never critique someones rp related choices.

But it's something else when it's a mechanics based discussion and people are spreading what I know to be misinformation about those mechanics. ^^

This isn't to say stop this discussion or any such thing. As a matter of fact, keep up the discussions and bring this stuff back up when the time rolls around for this class to be looked at again, but just know that 1) be tactful and mindful of what you say to each other during these discussions. Not everyone sees the world (the game world) the same way others do.


Do mention if I say something disrespectful, I certainly don't mean to be and will happily use the edit function. ^^

In the end it is all about having fun within the rules and constraints of the game. There are some things that can be changed and there are some things that are set in stone and will only be changed when SB himself allows it to be so. Also note that changes will be slow. This isn't any of our jobs and the people on DEV are here to have fun just like anyone else.

You're all doing an awesome job. ^^
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Next

Return to Races, Classes and Skills

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests