Ogre Balance Issue

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Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:45 pm

Hello All,

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I would like to preface this by saying any and all opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinions. I do not claim to be the arbiter of all that is right and wrong. I simply wish to share what is, in my opinion, an unbalanced race.

Boulder-Chested

An Ogres chest is broad and massive, the bones of their breast as thick as wooden planks and as hard as obsidian. Not only that, but their typically near full-body beards are surprisingly flame retardant, and many a swung blade can find themselves tangled up in braided strands before ever reaching ogre-flesh.

Mechanics: So long as an ogre is wearing no chest armor of any description (including cloth items) they receive a bonus to physical and magical defense for every class-enhancing level they receive. I.E at level 1 the ogre receives +1 defense, at level 5 +2 defense, at level 10 +3, all the way up to +7 at lvl 30. Can stack with enchant values.


This is an excellent racial advantage. The trade-off of not wearing chest armor but gaining both physical and magical defense is a fantastic bonus. It does scale particularly slowly, but both early levels and late levels can make good use of this advantage. An important thing to note here is that this means if an Ogre wishes to wear full plate they automatically lose this advantage. This is interestingly balanced because it does allow for a higher defensive bonus than all other simple chest pieces at level 30.. but at a cost.

Now to the corresponding disadvantage.

Toothpicks And Toe-nail Trimmers

Ogres, though not the largest race in Belariath, easily have the biggest hands and feet. Not only is fitting them with gloves and leggings an expensive nightmare, but it makes arming them with anything other than their fists a bit of a chore. Ogres can get past this hurtle if they put their more basic nature aside, but for most trying to swing a blade, be it short-sword or claymore, would be like a human trying to do battle with a nail-file. Even most spells pose a problem for Ogres, as their thick fingers can fumble over the casting postures.

Mechanics: Ogres suffer a 50% markup in the cost of any hand, arm, or leg armor they purchase, though this does not apply to a full set of plate. In addition, an Ogre must either forgo the Boulder-chested bonus in combat, or suffer a -1 to any attacks they make with a weapon or spell(including gauntlets if their offensive bonus is applied) for every +1 to defense Boulder-chested grants.


Here is where things start to go overboard on giving penalties for bonuses. Remember, ontop of everything listed here the Ogre player is already giving up a chest armor slot item to get the bonus at all. That is a considerable penalty unto itself.

...an Ogre must either forgo the Boulder-chested bonus in combat, or suffer a -1 to any attacks they make with a weapon or spell(including gauntlets if their offensive bonus is applied) for every +1 to defense Boulder-chested grants


Ok, this is a fair penalty. You get a +1 to all defenses, so take a -1 to all attacks. If this is all that it was then this would be perfectly balanced in the most literal of terms. Keep in mind, in order to get this balance of bonus to penalty the ogre player is already giving up their chest armor slot. Up until level 25 that means that an ogre player is getting less than, or equal to, physical defense provided by fairly inexpensive chest armor. So, what the Ogre player gets is bonus magical defense, more than anything, in exchange for a penalty to all attack rolls.

Still, at this point, there is a little more penalty than there is benefit but if we were to stop here the balance isn't that bad. However...

Ogres suffer a 50% markup in the cost of any hand, arm, or leg armor they purchase, though this does not apply to a full set of plate


If they want their racial bonus they have to forego chest armor, they can wear chest armor and negate their racial bonus. Regardless of that choice, 75% of all armor they could buy all has a rather steep 50% mark up. Meaning even if they did not wish to take their only bonus, they STILL take a penalty.

I feel this was an unnecessary addition and pushes the penalties of the race well beyond the benefits. Forcing a penalty even when advantages are opted out of is going overboard. I feel that if the price mark-up was simply removed that the balance of bonus to penalty would still be in favor of penalty, just not nearly as badly.

Thanks for reading! I invite any, and all, input.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby Ishamael on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:23 am

You neglected to mention a very important advantage.

The Flesh Remains
Ogres, as well as possessing all the longevity of elf-kind, are gifted with an almost otherworldly durability. They can still be murdered by the same methods as most other races, but to die by natural or accidental causes as an ogre is exceedingly difficult. Though a hungry race, Ogres are not prone starve to death nor die of thirst, growing weak and lean without sustenance to the point of near-death, but never actually expiring. When an area they reside in is sealed off and drained of air or they are submerged to great depths in water, ogres enter a sluggish and drunken state, but so long as they are capable of inhaling and exhaling a gas or liquid containing a minimal amount of oxygen, they will not perish; making Ogres more or less amphibious in spite of, or perhaps resulting in a very common fear or dislike of being submerged in water. That being said an Ogre can still be throttled to death if the thickness of their necks is accounted for, Ogres vulnerable to most all the means of homicide.

* An ogre can go forever without food or drink.
* An ogre can pretty much breath underwater.
* Although it isn't officially stated anywhere, the Necromancer's Asphyxiate spell should probably be less effective against against ogres as a result of their ability to survive with minimal air.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby Amara on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:26 am

It's always more expensive in the "BIG & TALL" section.

I know that doesn't help you any.

More materials to make it = an increase in pricing.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:33 am

@Ishamael - Every race has a mechanical advantage and disadvantage, and an RP advantage and disadvantage.

* An ogre can go forever without food or drink.


I've never seen ANY character die of either of these things.

* An ogre can pretty much breath underwater.


It's neat, it's fluffy, but adds no mechanical benefit. I was discussing mechanical advantages and disadvantages.

* Although it isn't officially stated anywhere, the Necromancer's Asphyxiate spell should probably be less effective against against ogres as a result of their ability to survive with minimal air.


"Should be" is not in the realms of what is and what isn't. Unless expressly stated this is nothing more than a made-up benefit, which adds nothing to the discussion.

Ultimately, if you want to post that advantage at least be fair enough to post the accompanying disadvantage of slowly going catatonic!

The Mind Withers
Though Ogres begin life with near as much potential for intelligence as any other race, learning and developing from youth to maturity in the same way as Human-kind, achieving adulthood means the beginning of their mental decline, which can often be exceedingly steep. Though the rate of decay varies from Ogre to Ogre, all suffer this malady, and the older an ogre grows the more forgetful, dense, and easily confused they will become. After centuries for some and mere decades for others this condition culminates in catatonia. The only 'cure' for this condition is the ritualistic imbibing of a special potion brewed of moon-dust, which only trades the slow decline of the mind for a violent, raving madness. Should an ogre choose and be granted this path, they are rarely allowed back into civilized society, or even the society of most other Ogres.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:45 am

@Amara

Amara wrote:It's always more expensive in the "BIG & TALL" section.

I know that doesn't help you any.

More materials to make it = an increase in pricing.


Sadly, if that penalty was across all large races I could see that being a legitimate argument. But Minotaurs (the largest race) and Trolls (the same size as Ogres) do not suffer any gear purchasing penalties.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby Amara on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:48 am

UnderTow` wrote:@Amara

Amara wrote:It's always more expensive in the "BIG & TALL" section.

I know that doesn't help you any.

More materials to make it = an increase in pricing.


Sadly, if that penalty was across all large races I could see that being a legitimate argument. But Minotaurs (the largest race) and Trolls (the same size as Ogres) do not suffer any gear purchasing penalties.


This race, Ogre was recently revamped in 2014. We've not gotten to the other larger races. We are slowly getting there.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:55 am

Amara wrote:This race, Ogre was recently revamped. We've not gotten to the other larger races. We are slowly getting there.


Ah, well that does explain a bit.

In my honest opinion, mechanically, the race does suffer a bit harshly on penalties for their bonus. Just my two cents. Thank you for that input though. It does show why a comparison at present time is faulty :)
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby Naomh on Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:56 am

Don't forget ogres also have an unlisted bonus where they get a bonus to their strength when it comes to equipment. Not really a huge factor at upper levels but...

In the case of ogres, it's twice their strength.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:12 am

Anaya wrote:Don't forget ogres also have an unlisted bonus where they get a bonus to their strength when it comes to equipment. Not really a huge factor at upper levels but...

In the case of ogres, it's twice their strength.


Ok, I have seen the bonus on Trolls and Minotaurs as well (the number in parenthesis) but I didn't realize that's what it was. Instead of knocking ogres as a mark-up on specific pieces of gear maybe it should be handled like this bonus. A flat +/-25% increase in cost for all pieces of armor for larger races. That makes a bit more sense to me at least.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby crow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:18 am

Alright, so let's see here...

Ogres mechanically get:
1. A net +0 atk/def (-7 & +7 = 0. Or you ignore the racial entirely = 0.)
2. A +50% STR for the purpose of armor requirements.
3. A +50% markup on armor prices for arms/legs.

1. Self negating. Neither positive nor negative.
2. A minor boon.
3. Self negating. The price markup does not apply to a full set of plate, which is what you want anyway.

Admittedly, #3 is only if the Ogre is a Warrior/Warlord.
Shamans/Necromancers/EarthMages cannot wear full plate and will be paying the mark up.

So the bottom line is... Ogre racials mechanically add up to a minor positive if they are warriors, and a negative if they are shaman.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:46 pm

@Crow

3. Self negating. The price markup does not apply to a full set of plate, which is what you want anyway.


I'm not so sure about this point. Lets do a quick comparison.

Body Plate + Gambeson offers a hefty +14 Defense which works against all physical attacks and some magical. Extremely useful. However...

Horned Helm: DEF 3,
Mithril Greaves: DEF 1
Mithril Vambraces: DEF 1
Mithril Gauntlets: DEF 1
Gambeson: DEF 1
Racial Bonus: 7 DEF vs. Physical and Magical.

As shown above you can get the same +14 DEF without body plate, and a guaranteed 7 DEF against magic as well. But, you also eat the -7 to all attacks, which gaining attack boosts are generally harder to get than defensive ones.

So, here is a good question. If the best course of action is to opt out of a benefit.. is it really a benefit? It seems to me that the bonus is rather overshadowed by the penalty. If you only look at the +1/-1 scale it is perfectly balanced, but how difficult it is to get ATK up vs. DEF up shows a clear discrepancy. By level 20 there is no one handed weapon that will even offer a bonus to attack any more because of the -5, that's a bit steep. by level 30 there is only one weapon left that will offer a net bonus, the greatsword.. at a total of 8-7=1
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby crow on Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:39 pm

UnderTow` wrote:Body Plate + Gambeson offers a hefty +14 Defense which works against all physical attacks and some magical. Extremely useful. However...

Horned Helm: DEF 3,
Mithril Greaves: DEF 1
Mithril Vambraces: DEF 1
Mithril Gauntlets: DEF 1
Gambeson: DEF 1
Racial Bonus: 7 DEF vs. Physical and Magical.


1. Ogre's cannot wear a Gambeson and benefit from their Racial ability. It is a cloth chest piece. So that's a -1 for barechested
2. If I recall correctly, body plate allows for the replacement of the Great Helmet without ill effect for another +1 for body plate. (I may be mistaken, it's been a while.)

So, that would bring the total comparison to Plate+15(or +14) vs Bare+13. Which would appear to be in favor of Plate. If we're looking purely at physical defense.

But, you also eat the -7 to all attacks, which gaining attack boosts are generally harder to get than defensive ones.

The difficulty of obtaining attack boosts is not relevant to the comparison since we aren't comparing your atk to your def. We are comparing the opponent's atk/def to your def/atk. As such, an equal +/- to both always works out the same.

I'll briefly illustrate my point: For the sake of it. I'll just use 10atk and 20def as defaults.
Default:
Ogre 10atk vs Human 20def = Net -10atk Ogre
Human 10atk vs Ogre 20def= Net -10atk Human

Boulder Chested/Toothpicks -7/-7
Ogre 3atk vs Human 20def = Net -17atk Ogre
Human 10 atk vs Ogre 27def= Net -17atk Human

So as you can see, equally changing both sides of the atk/def still results in both fighters having equal chances to hit. (Though both of their chances to hit have gone down, an equal amount.)

So, here is a good question. If the best course of action is to opt out of a benefit.. is it really a benefit?

At it's face, I would say: no.
I would go so far as to expand it to: "If there is no difference between using a benefit or opting out of a benefit, it is not a benefit."
Which I think is where Ogre is at right now.

If you only look at the +1/-1 scale it is perfectly balanced, but how difficult it is to get ATK up vs. DEF up shows a clear discrepancy. By level 20 there is no one handed weapon that will even offer a bonus to attack any more because of the -5, that's a bit steep. by level 30 there is only one weapon left that will offer a net bonus, the greatsword.. at a total of 8-7=1

As I mentioned before, the difficulty of getting an attack bonus does not change the math or end result.

If using a weapon would result in a negative modifier, you would be best served using your bare hands, which are always +0.
However, it is worth remembering that your hands cannot be enchanted, but weapons can. Which grants an extra +5 that will likely ensure the weapons you are using stay above +1.
For example, en enchanted Great Sword is 8+5=13-7= +6
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby UnderTow on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:33 am

@crow

So as it stands it appears that an optimized ogre warlord is, essentially, a null race. Ignore the bonuses and penalties all together and just go with body plate.

Thank you for the math-hammering.
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Re: Ogre Balance Issue

Postby crow on Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:14 am

UnderTow` wrote:@crow

So as it stands it appears that an optimized ogre warlord is, essentially, a null race. Ignore the bonuses and penalties all together and just go with body plate.

Yes, I think that is an accurate mechanical assessment.

I've spent a bit of time attempting to concoct a method to abuse the racial, and the only thing that I was able to think of is to create an Ogre Monk. As the monk normally only uses +0 unarmed attacks and will thus not be penalized by taking an extra +7 defense on top of their already impressive natural +25.

Sadly, Ogres cannot be monks. QQ

Thank you for the math-hammering.

My pleasure. ^^
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