Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Questions and suggestions for additions or changes to these topics

Moderators: Stormbringer, Ehlanna

Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby Rei-Kai on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:55 pm

Simple changes to Warrior-Mage that can make it worth playing.

Enable use of 2h weapons and shields. Walling them off without reason is pointless.

Argument: But Warrior-Mages must always have a free hand to cast magic.
Counter: Can still use shield with one hand and free hand uses magic.
Argument: But two-handed weapons don't permit use of magic.
Counter: Using magic or weapons in combat is player choice. Always has been. As is the choice to drop their weapon in favor of using magic at any point.
Argument: But Warrior-Mages are jacks of all trades, not masters of them.
Counter: Hence restriction to C - class equipment and mithril armor, which prevents use of the highest Defense armor and most damaging weapons.

Enable use of Arcana spells up to Magex5 level as appropriate for every level of Warrior-Mage taken, up to Warrior-Magex5.

Argument: But WaM's are not masters of magic, so shouldn't have access to higher spells.
Counter: And they don't. Magex7 is the highest, and would compose mastery of Arcana spells. Magex6-7 spells would still be walled off, preventing the Warrior-Mage from ever mastering them.
Argument: Then why not just keep taking Mage at each prompt instead of upgrading Warrior-Mage?
Counter: Result is still the same. To gain Warrior-Mage and then upgrade Mage would still only result in Mage upgrading to Magex5 at best. So, regardless, Magex5 spells would be the most they are capable of, even using this method.
Argument: Then why not just do that?
Counter: It'd be the same as punishing the player for even choosing the Warrior-Mage class, and would make the classes very existence irrelevant to the game. If that were to be the case, then the class itself shouldn't even exist.

Adjust the "Cosmic Balance" disadvantage to stat equality between two primary combat stats, not all four.

Argument: But they're not masters of magic or combat. Why lessen the restriction?
Counter: Their lack of mastery is already reflected in their inability to use the best armor, weapons and spells. Mastery or lack-there-of has nothing to do with combat stats.
Argument: Then why bother restricting to just balance of two stats?
Counter: Ultimately that is all that is required for any class to be effective in offense or defense. Any character, regardless of class, can simply pool stats into Str and Res, or Int and Agi, and have a high degree of attack or def without having to focus on just those necessary to their class.

Example: Pooling in Str+Int would be beneficial for ranged physical and close magical attacks, giving high offensive ability, but only moderate ability in CloPhyAtk/def, CloMagDef, and RanMagAtk/Def. Doing in the other way, pooling into Agi+Res would have the opposite effect.

This ultimately reflects how each individual player chooses to act in battle, regardless of class choice. The only difference here is that Warrior-Mage has to keep two at around the same level, whereas any other class can simply pool everything into a single stat.
Image
User avatar
Rei-Kai
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:22 am

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby crow on Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:46 am

Rei-Kai wrote:Enable use of 2h weapons and shields. Walling them off without reason is pointless.

I suppose it would be a nice change of pace to allow Warrior-Mages that didn't happen to pick Torian at creation a decent weapon.

Enable use of Arcana spells up to Magex5 level as appropriate for every level of Warrior-Mage taken, up to Warrior-Magex5.


From a fluff perspective, I suppose you can get away with paying lip service to the idea of not being a master of arcane by not learning all the spells and learning them slower.


lvl 1 mage1 - mage1
lvl 5 mage2 - mage1/warrior1
lvl 10 mage3 - warrior-mage 1
lvl 15 mage4- warrior-mage 2


In terms of spell progression, this would put the Warrior-Mage 10 levels behind a pure mage in terms of access to the arcane sphere? This seems reasonable.


Mage6: Deadly Repetition & Teleport.
Mage7: Shield of Energy & Portal.


From a power perspective at higher levels, you do appear to learn all the worthwhile mage spells in the sphere. The four spells you miss out on are generally not useful in combat.


Adjust the "Cosmic Balance" disadvantage to stat equality between two primary combat stats, not all four.

If I'm understanding this correctly. You are suggesting the WaM picks any 2 of the 4 combat stats, Str/Int/Agi/Res, and keeps those two the same. Such as picking Int and Res.

So, this would allow a Warrior-Mage to be a 'Glass Cannon' ? Not bad.


However, let's be real here. If you make this change, why not just get rid of it entirely? Because you've created the means to utterly ignore it.
You say:
This ultimately reflects how each individual player chooses to act in battle, regardless of class choice. The only difference here is that Warrior-Mage has to keep two at around the same level, whereas any other class can simply pool everything into a single stat.

But that is not true.

For the sake of easy reading, I'll divide 100 points. Say I want to pool everything into Res. I would pick Str and Agi as my two stats to keep balanced. Resulting in this:
STR:1, Int:1, Agi:1, Res:97


You suppose you could add caveats like: No unchosen stat can ever be higher than a chosen stat. Which would allow it to work the way you imagined. I do like the added flexibility WaM's would have as a result of this. It would open them up to two more stat builds than they currently have: (4 low stats, 3 medium stats, 2 high stats.)
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby miyuka on Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:16 am

As I've said in the past, if anything I'd be all for giving them a few WaM only spells in the Arcana sphere, prolly one for each level of Wam you can be (one at X1 another at X2) but the rest of this stuff? I'm not too sure about such changes. Can't see it happening without changing the Mindset which I'm pretty sure we don't wanna do at this juncture. They are meant to be users of one handed weapons with the other free for magic, and have a balance between their four primary stats, they can get some spells, but of course not all of them. It's a bit of give and take. The shield thing is kinda weird, def will look into that when Dev gets to WaM, see about shaking things up for that aspect.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby Farvel on Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:16 am

You could change the balance rule to something like "your best skill cannot be more than 10 points ahead of your second best" (I know, terrible way to describe it, but you get the point) and it would work as intended.

I like these ideas. At the very least it would help atenuate the fact that an advanced class is actually less powerful than the combination of its basics, which is quite ridiculous.
Image
User avatar
Farvel
Predominate
Predominate
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:16 am

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby Rei-Kai on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:12 pm

crow wrote:But that is not true.

For the sake of easy reading, I'll divide 100 points. Say I want to pool everything into Res. I would pick Str and Agi as my two stats to keep balanced. Resulting in this:
STR:1, Int:1, Agi:1, Res:97

You suppose you could add caveats like: No unchosen stat can ever be higher than a chosen stat. Which would allow it to work the way you imagined. I do like the added flexibility WaM's would have as a result of this. It would open them up to two more stat builds than they currently have: (4 low stats, 3 medium stats, 2 high stats.)


I look at it like this. If you had 2 chosen stats, and 100 points to spend in all categories, it would look more like this.
Str 1 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1 (ignoring c;ass/race buffs)
12 stat modifiers used (going by actual game cost), leaving 88 points remaining. If my chosen 2 stats were Str and Int, the remainder would go into those points, looking more like this;
Str 23 int 23 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1
That uses the remaining 88 point distribution at 2/1 ratio for primary stats. Doesn't seem all that different. Even keeping by rule that those two can't have a 10 point difference between them, it's ultimately not that big of a change, making at best Str 28 Int 18 or vice-versa.

The thing I get at is, nothing stops a straight Mage from throwing everything into 1 stat. Conversely, giving them the same 100 points (minus class/race), can look more like this;
Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1
Why all in Strength? Because they're free to do that. Even restricted to class A weapons/armor, a Mage can still choose to put all their points into Strength and just attack with a knife or throw pebbles at people. While certainly they suffer from "Magical Fixation", there are still Close Magic spells that rely on strength. So even then, focusing on the Str stat isn't going against their mindset. They are still capable of learning all Arcana spells, but what spells each player uses when in combat is always up to them. Nothing stops a Mage from stat piling Strength and just focus on punching people or using Close Magic spells. It's just personal preference.

miyuka wrote:As I've said in the past, if anything I'd be all for giving them a few WaM only spells in the Arcana sphere, prolly one for each level of Wam you can be (one at X1 another at X2) but the rest of this stuff? I'm not too sure about such changes. Can't see it happening without changing the Mindset which I'm pretty sure we don't wanna do at this juncture. They are meant to be users of one handed weapons with the other free for magic, and have a balance between their four primary stats, they can get some spells, but of course not all of them. It's a bit of give and take. The shield thing is kinda weird, def will look into that when Dev gets to WaM, see about shaking things up for that aspect.


We've never seen quite eye-to-eye on this subject. However I don't see how my changes affect their mindset. Allowing more flexibility in stats can only improve things. And, as I've tried or made note of in my class submissions for WaM replacers, that a class that utilizes weapons and magic together should be capable of casting spells through their weapons, using them as a medium. So even having weapons in both hands or a two-handed weapon would not impede their spell casting.

But as I've also said in those other submissions, is that the idea is based on the weapon in question also being mithril, which allows for the use of magic. Much the way mithril armor does, specifically gauntlets, that would otherwise impede other magic users. And since there are no current mithril 2-handed weapons in game, that can exist as an In-Game reason why Warrior-Mages do not use two-handed weapons. Because none currently exist that could be used as a medium for them to cast magic through. These changes, along with better explanations on some restrictions, can drastically and dramatically improve the class and how it's viewed.

And I'm all for more Warrior-Mage spells. But if we're only getting upwards of 5, it doesn't seem worth it. I am still of the mind that we should have at least 10 Viable spells. And by viable, I mean spells that are actually useful in combat and not suffering from such grievous stamina costs as to just make whacking someone with a rock more cost effective. I get the same feeling for Shaman spells, but that's a different subject.

I still have my Rune Knight and Sage of Arms submissions around, with ideas and spells. Any of them could be reworked to help improve Warrior-Mage if it doesn't get wiped from the system. Anyone can look at these, draw inspiration, gain ideas and find ways to improve Warrior-Mage that will make it more enjoyable without making it OP.
Rune Knight - http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=16085
Sage of Arms - http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19201
Image
User avatar
Rei-Kai
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:22 am

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby miyuka on Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:18 pm

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that the casting through mithril weapons thing is something I'd look forward to as well, though I'm still not of mind to let them wield 2-handers even if some could be made of mithril. As far as spells go they already have access to a spell sphere to begin with. Giving them a few that are of their own would be a nice touch but we're not trying to over do it with giving them 10 whole unique spells on top of what they already gain access to. If that doesn't seem worth it to you compared to what they have now (which is pretty much no unique spells) then I dunno what to tell ya. They have viable spells and spells are always going to cost more stamina than just hitting something in the face with your weapon or a rock in the case of your example. That's the drawback to using spells versus just wielding a weapon. Spells can always be adjusted. As far as the mindset goes, The WaM in Belariath (I know they aren't quite that way in other places) represent a balance between the arcane and the physical hence why they have the whole balance between their primary stats instead of being able to just pour points into just one or two different areas or however one wishes to spend their points.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby crow on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:38 pm

Rei-Kai wrote:I look at it like this. If you had 2 chosen stats, and 100 points to spend in all categories, it would look more like this.
Str 1 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1 (ignoring c;ass/race buffs)
12 stat modifiers used (going by actual game cost), leaving 88 points remaining. If my chosen 2 stats were Str and Int, the remainder would go into those points, looking more like this;
Str 23 int 23 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1 That uses the remaining 88 point distribution at 2/1 ratio for primary stats. Doesn't seem all that different. Even keeping by rule that those two can't have a 10 point difference between them, it's ultimately not that big of a change, making at best Str 28 Int 18 or vice-versa.


The thing I get at is, nothing stops a straight Mage from throwing everything into 1 stat. Conversely, giving them the same 100 points (minus class/race), can look more like this;
Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1
Why all in Strength? Because they're free to do that. Even restricted to class A weapons/armor, a Mage can still choose to put all their points into Strength and just attack with a knife or throw pebbles at people. While certainly they suffer from "Magical Fixation", there are still Close Magic spells that rely on strength. So even then, focusing on the Str stat isn't going against their mindset. They are still capable of learning all Arcana spells, but what spells each player uses when in combat is always up to them. Nothing stops a Mage from stat piling Strength and just focus on punching people or using Close Magic spells. It's just personal preference.


You've misunderstood what I was illustrating.

There is a loophole in your proposed change to cosmic balance that gives a WarriorMage the exact same flexibility as a StraightMage in stat distribution. I would ask that you read my post again with that in mind.

Specifically, note that the chosen two stats are not the stats I am putting the points into. I'll attempt illustrate again by taking your example for a mage which is free to distribute his points as he wills:

Straight Mage: Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1


Warrior Mage: Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1
(Chosen two stats: Int and Agi, which are both 1.)

See how the Warrior-Mage can get the exact same stats as the mage despite supposedly not being free to choose? That's the loophole.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby Rei-Kai on Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:27 pm

crow wrote:You've misunderstood what I was illustrating.

There is a loophole in your proposed change to cosmic balance that gives a WarriorMage the exact same flexibility as a StraightMage in stat distribution. I would ask that you read my post again with that in mind.

Specifically, note that the chosen two stats are not the stats I am putting the points into. I'll attempt illustrate again by taking your example for a mage which is free to distribute his points as he wills:

Straight Mage: Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1


Warrior Mage: Str 45 Int 1 Agi 1 Res 1 Stam 2 Spells 0 Life 1
(Chosen two stats: Int and Agi, which are both 1.)

See how the Warrior-Mage can get the exact same stats as the mage despite supposedly not being free to choose? That's the loophole.


Perhaps I should've been more clear. Two stats to continue improving more than any other. What you describe is not focusing on two stats it keep equal, it's just ignoring them altogether in favor of something else entirely. Which defeats the purpose.

miyuka wrote:As far as spells go they already have access to a spell sphere to begin with. Giving them a few that are of their own would be a nice touch but we're not trying to over do it with giving them 10 whole unique spells on top of what they already gain access to. If that doesn't seem worth it to you compared to what they have now (which is pretty much no unique spells) then I dunno what to tell ya. They have viable spells and spells are always going to cost more stamina than just hitting something in the face with your weapon or a rock in the case of your example. That's the drawback to using spells versus just wielding a weapon. Spells can always be adjusted. As far as the mindset goes, The WaM in Belariath (I know they aren't quite that way in other places) represent a balance between the arcane and the physical hence why they have the whole balance between their primary stats instead of being able to just pour points into just one or two different areas or however one wishes to spend their points.


I think you missed what I was saying. I meant the two specific WaM spells that cost double the stamina to use. Making them too costly to be really usable, not to mention their affects being almost useless. And saying "They already have Arcana spells" is honestly just sounding like an excuse not to give them anything. When fact remains, anyone with mage class gets the same spells. And E-Mages get a plethora of new spells, and advanced Mages get access to even more in that category.

To be honest, the majority of spells accessed with Mage rank 1 all serve the same function when attacking. There is no variation on how they work, only what element is being presented. Aside from the Magical and Physical Armor spells, there is almost no other reason for someone to take Mage before advancing to another class. Frankly speaking, Shadow Bolt from the Illusion sphere is technically superior to the other beginning ranged magics in Arcana, simply for the fact it's Non-Elemental, so E-Mages won't have a special resistance to certain types.

The primary fact is, none of these spells reflect the nature of the class. WaM is described as an Advanced Physical and Magical class. Perhaps not "advanced" in the same way a Fire mage or Hierophant is, but nothing about the spells they can use says they did anything other than learn the basic rudimentary spells that any magic caster can learn. Nothing that says they changed how it was used to fit their unique view, mentality and way of fighting.
Image
User avatar
Rei-Kai
Initiate
Initiate
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:22 am

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby crow on Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:04 am

Rei-Kai wrote:Perhaps I should've been more clear. Two stats to continue improving more than any other. What you describe is not focusing on two stats it keep equal, it's just ignoring them altogether in favor of something else entirely. Which defeats the purpose.


Adjust the "Cosmic Balance" disadvantage to stat equality between two primary combat stats, not all four.


Exactly. The wording needs a change to remove the loophole.
Image
User avatar
crow
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Warrior-Mage: Simple Fixes 3.0

Postby miyuka on Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:19 am

no, I got what you were saying just fine, actually. I understand that you find the current spells weaker, but I was talking about totally new spells and the current ones can -always- be changed if they are found to be lacking. What I don't understand is you saying that them having access to the arcana sphere is an excuse not to give them anything. The whole point and one part of the class is that they are part mage...so naturally they'd have such access. The different elemental spells they have access to actually would give them an advantage over an elemental mage in the sense that the WaM could choose the element that the Elemental mage is weak to and use that against them. You wouldn't get to exploit that weakness with a shadow bolt. Them gaining access to some spells but not all is kind of the point of the class. A balance of mage and warrior. A bit of one a bit of the other, but not the whole thing of either (which is why the no shield at all thing is a bit odd IMHO!).

At any rate when them come up for review, these are all things to def bring up with the rest of the team, see what they think. Just know that it's going to be quite some time for that.
User avatar
miyuka
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5116
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm
Location: Georgia USA baby!


Return to Races, Classes and Skills

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests