Player Input to Development

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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby lyllamarie on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:47 pm

Next Up and now Open for Player input:

Swan Maidens then Torians

For the Next Class to be worked on, please participate in the poll http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=18988.


If you have any input, stories, additions, subtractions, grief, etc, please reply to this thread with your thoughts.


Thank you!
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby InsanityVixen on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:03 pm

As most of you know, I play Mysiq Vlia! The Catman of Bravery, the Warrior-Mage of Sexy, the Every Night Delight!

As you noted, he is a Warrior-Mage. As a Warrior-Mage, I've always wondered why we don't have our own Sphere. A sphere which combines magical and physical, or it takes the basics of other magical spheres (Elemental only) and somewhat "dumbs" them down to reflect how much "time" was spent in trying to learn magic. A few instances:

The Umbara/Unigo Keys, as I understand them, should stay with those who are full mages.

The spells WaM's should have access to are the spells without AdvMagex2-5. A WaM should only count as a lvl 1 in the adv class, because they had to learn about magic of many kinds in order to wield it any spell correctly. So when it comes to these basic advanced mage spells, like, Fire Cell in the Pyromancer list, Stone Fist in Geomancer, Lightning Bolt in Aeromancer, or Liquid Shackles in Hydromancer, the versions a WaM should be able to use, would be lesser versions.

The capture/contain spells, if someone has a higher intelligence than the WaM casting, the spell is easily broken.

Fist and Bolt, would be better if a mechanic dev did the work with them.

I also would like to see the WaM have more spells/attacks. A long time ago, when class skills were thought of to be brought into the game, the WaM had a great skill idea: A weapon with its own mind when it was upgraded to its max. One of the other skills was that the WaM could enchant their weapon for the current battle, making their attacks elemental as well. Enchant it with 15 slots of ice shards, add +5 ice/water damage on top of the weapon's original damage.

Right now these are the only things that come to my mind. I don't mind the disadvantage because it works.
Mysiq Vlia, Kerrigan Enchikra-Lyxteric, Dritchani, Kierstiq, Britanie Darkflare, Al`vur Nek, Nuemalyys Orlausck, Drusilda, Amalia, Oar, Jyles.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby lyllamarie on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:45 pm

Next Up and now Open for Player input:

Warlords

If you have any input, stories, additions, subtractions, grief, etc, please reply to this thread with your thoughts.


Thank you!
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby Cronn Thunderhowl on Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:12 am

Dev, you know my writeups, they tend to be long, so i won't clutter the dev thread, but insted start one on the swan may and link it here

Swan may

I think this way is better. Comments can be added there too and in the end when everyone is happy we cann pull the result here.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby lyllamarie on Thu May 21, 2015 11:27 pm

Next Up and now Open for Player input:

Paladins

If you have any input, stories, additions, subtractions, grief, etc, please reply to this thread with your thoughts.


Thank you!
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby crow on Fri May 29, 2015 4:38 am

lyllamarie wrote:
Next Up and now Open for Player input:

Paladins

If you have any input, stories, additions, subtractions, grief, etc, please reply to this thread with your thoughts.


Thank you!
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Alright! Paladins!
Let's start with something easy:

Show of Faith
A paladin must always be clearly recognizable, and as such, must decorate his weapon, his shield or his armor with the emblem of his deity. To do this, he must spend one day consecrating it to the appropriate deity. Without this, a paladin is unable to perform any of his class spells or functions. A paladin can never hide what they are or their faith.

There aren't any paladin class spells or functions. So this line can either be removed or better yet...

Spell Spheres Allowed: Racial, Common

How come Paladins don't have access to the Divine sphere? It's practically communication with their deity. Granted, the divine sphere itself is practically entirely "Requires cleric x1-7" to do anything, but it's really odd that Paladins don't get anything. At the very least I would expect them to be able to wield this spell:
Holy Strike:
Level required: 5
Casting method: clomagatk
Defending method: clomagdef
Description: Class: Cleric ::
Level: X2 ::

The cleric can invoke their God's might, instilling a single weapon with Divine energies that allow the wielder to swing fast, strike harder than would normally be possible. It is often used in combat, sung as a battle hymn to their God, calling upon their Patron to fill them with their righteous might.

MECHANICS:: A Close Magical Attack is rolled to determine the strength of the Blessing, the number of slots put into this incantation indicate number of rounds that it lasts, and the strength of the Cleric determines the bonus to Strike and damage. The Cleric instills the weapons with +1 for every time that he has taken Cleric, to a maximum of +5. This costs 6 stamina for every + instilled into the weapon.

At ClericX6, the Cleric can add a touch of Divine fire to the weapon, adding an additional +1 of fire damage, and at ClericX7, the weapon stuns an opponent should he fail a Close Magical Defense rolled against the Cleric's original Close Magical Attack roll. This Blessing is most often used by Aden Ver's and Kirva's Clerics, and like all Blessings and Curses, it does not stack with Wizardly magics. They are completely different and do not mesh well at all. This added bonus to the incantation of a weapon adds in ten Stamina cost to the Cleric.


It practically describes exactly what a Paladin does for a living, smite the unbelievers with your sword! ^^

Now granted, I do not think the entire sphere should be available. The task of a Paladin differs from a priest, though it could be seen as a more physically specialized cleric. To this end, curses and blessings probably ought to remain unique to the cleric due to their more magical nature, however here is a small list of spells that I think make perfect sense for the Paladin's role:

Holy Strike: (Deity blesses the sword)
Shielding Hand: (Deity protects from physical, and later magical, attacks.) (Cleric only.)
Keep the Faith: (Deity fortifies the mind with courage) (Cleric/Priest if taken before advancing.)
Patron's Grace: (Deity allows 1 reroll.) (Cleric/Priest.)
Titan's Touch: (Deity grands miraculous strength for a brief period.) (Cleric only.)
World of One: (Proselytizing.) (Cleric/Priest.)

All of these deal either with physical matters, or are flavorful spells that all worshipers (Cleric/Priest) have access to in order to spread the word.

Naturally a Paladin won't be as good at the ranged magic in the Divine sphere as their Cleric or Priest counterparts (as conveniently portrayed by their different stat priorities), but they should have no problem with asking their deity for blessings to either offensive, defense, or mental fortitude.

As far as mechanics go, because most mechanics of the divine sphere deal with the number of times the cleric class is taken, I think the easiest method would be to just say: "Paladinx1 counts as Clericx3, further additions add by x1" somewhere at the top of the sphere page and call it a day. It would end up as such:
Paladin x1=Cleric x3
Paladin x2=Cleric x4
Paladin x3=Cleric x5
Paladin x4=Cleric x6
Paladin x5=Cleric x7

Mithril Gauntlets
Description: ATK 1 when used as weapon (i.e., a punch) NO spell casting possible whilst being worn EXCEPT by the Warrior Mage or Paladin advanced class. Cost for enchantment is 75% normal.

Hurray for this change! <3
But, what about this one?
Mithril Half Plate
Description: Cuirass (front and back plates) made from mithril. Enchantments cost 75% of normal cost due to ease of enspelling. Spell-Casting by Warrior-Mage (only) permitted

Same kind of logic, right?

Advantage:
Sense of Threat
Paladins spend their lives on the forefront in defending those of their faith from all forms of dangers. As such they have a heightened sense of where danger will come from and the intent of other characters. This will act as a 'lie hear spell' to those who are planning to harm the paladin or their faith.

This is neat flavor, though the current trend appears to be that reworked classes are given a flavor treat and a small combat boon (with a drawback). Like, the Paladin's unevolved classes Knight, and Cleric both gain small defensive boosts. Perhaps something along those lines could be implemented for the Paladin? Perhaps something that ONLY works if they are directly defending their faith?

Threat Detected:
To defend that faith and faithful from those who would seek to do it harm. - The paladin's sworn oath.
The paladin is bolstered by their Deity's power. They are no mere warriors, but the chosen vessel of their deity's wrath when time comes to truly fulfill the oath. A true protector of the faith, their spirit is filled with the righteous fury of their diety.

Mechanics:
Only activates when the faith, another faithful, or the temple are under direct persecution.

Mechanics: For each time Paladin class is taken, a +1 boon is given, to a cumulative bonus of +5 at Paladin x 5.
This ability applies to the Paladin's Damage roll. Adding up to +5 damage.
This boon will also absorb damage dealt to the Paladin as a direct result of a failed defense, up to 5 damage.

As a Divine Warrior his sole interest is in battling and defeating any opposition that hinders the spreading the Word of His/Her Deity by any means determined acceptable by his Ethos {his code of honor and sworn bond to his God/ess}.

This is an awesome description of the paladin. <3
Though all the hedging makes it look kinda awkward. (His/Her, God/ess) not to mention it is inconsistent. I think it's better to either pick one, or eschew gender language all together.

A Divine Warrior who's sole interest is in battling and defeating any opposition that hinders the spreading the Word of their Deity by any means determined acceptable by their Ethos {the code of honor and sworn bond to the Deity}.

That's all I've got. ^^
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby Thria on Sat May 30, 2015 2:39 pm

The only comment i would make about crow's post is when it comes to the description of Titan's Touch. The caveat of Titan's Touch is that it -CANNOT- be used to inflict harm or damage; which.. is what a Paladin is supposed to be doing. A paladin should presumably already be strong, so a boon from a god to be strong seems... double-stacking? So.. I do not feel that particular spell does mesh with the paladin class. Other than that, all sounds good.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby crow on Sat May 30, 2015 4:30 pm

Thria wrote:The only comment i would make about crow's post is when it comes to the description of Titan's Touch. The caveat of Titan's Touch is that it -CANNOT- be used to inflict harm or damage; which.. is what a Paladin is supposed to be doing. A paladin should presumably already be strong, so a boon from a god to be strong seems... double-stacking?
So.. I do not feel that particular spell does mesh with the paladin class. Other than that, all sounds good.

That's a good point. I thought I had a good reason for this, but now that you mention it, I was wrong.

I was originally thinking of it kind of as a 'perform a physical miracle' type spell rather than as a means of attack. Like say, a burning building is collapsing and through the use of the spell the paladin holds up the roof long enough for others to escape before he's crushed. Or like say, if the worshipers are chased and cornered with their backs to a raging river, the paladin could uproot a tree to create passage. Which I thought at the time would fit with the paladin as a protector of the faith...

However, upon reflection, the Paladin's brand of 'protection' as per the write-up is a very specific: "Smite/convert the unbeliever." style. They appear to be solely dedicated to dealing with living, breathing enemies of the faith, not anything else. To hop back to the previous examples. The paladin is far more suited at punishing the arsonist that set fire to the building. Or to stay behind on the makeshift bridge, after a cleric has created it, and prevent the enemy from further pursuing the worshipers (as long as possible anyway).

Admittedly, part of it was that I felt it was a bit silly that a mere cleric could do a physical miracle, but a paladin couldn't. But I might have been missing the point: It is a bigger miracle if it is performed by someone you'd never have thought had that kind of strength, because they don't, it's their Deity working through them.

I also feel it is a bit silly that I made post for Paladins, but not Warlords. ^^;
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby UnderTow on Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:02 pm

[Moving Post from it's own thread to this discussion]

Hello Everyone,

In the light of recently looking over some of the classes, and advanced classes, I took a look at Paladins and was a bit dismayed at what I saw. But, it does nothing to sit and whine... so I decided to come and talk about this currently underwhelming class and possibly offer a few suggestions.

Disclaimer: I acknowledge that I am not the holder of all knowledge and as such know that there are some pieces of information I will simply not be privy to. I can only offer my own observations and welcome any and all constructive criticism.

The Stats

At present, this is the Paladin automatic statistical improvement each time Paladin is chosen:

2 STR 4 INT 4 AGI 7 RES 0 STA 0 SPL 1 LFE

This class is a vanguard class, a front line fighter, so having majority of points into defensive stats (RES and AGI) are great and make perfect sense. The fact that RES is the largest bonus is even good... a holy/unholy warrior being resistant to magic makes sense. However, a class that has access to no special spheres of magic (Racial and Common only) and relies on melee combat getting 4 INT and only 2 STR doesn't make a lot of sense to me. At the very least reversing those number should make more sense and at best it would make more sense, in my honest opinion, to go 4 STR, 0 INT, and 4 STA. If someone WANTS to build up some spell casting they can use character points to do so. However, since the class doesn't have any spellcasting perks whatsoever it doesn't make sense to award it INT over STR.

Spell Selection

To support this we need to look at the Cleric class, one of the base classes that leads into paladin and the one that grants a special sphere, Divine. The Divine sphere comes with many very cool spells.. some unique buffs and curses. However, a closer look into this sphere shows that two key spells that would be valuable to a Paladin (Holy Strike and Shielding Hand) both have mechanics that scale the effect based on how many cleric levels the caster possesses.

So, where does this leave Paladin? In short, not too hot.

Though Paladins do get access to quite a few curses and blessings which can be useful they miss out on the two crowned gems of the sphere... two of the main reasons to even want to trek into Divine. Furthermore, once the Cleric becomes a Paladin they lose access to that sphere.

A potential solution is to at least let Paladin count as Cleric for the purposes of spell effects. So a Paladin x4 counts as a Cleric x4 for the purposes of Divine sphere spellcasting. I would also move to allow Paladins to also have access to the Divine sphere since they are meant to be holy warriors but perhaps make some of the spells Cleric/Priest(ess) only to keep a unique benefit for them (Much like WaM and Mage's access to the Arcana Sphere).

You could lump these together to act as a second class Advantage "Divine Conduit" or something like that. In exchange you could have the following disadvantage:

Divine Law: The effects of Divine Conduit are contingent upon a Paladin remaining in good standing with their chosen God/Goddess and as such their power is linked to that favor. Any Paladin found to be failing in A) Upholding the rules and beliefs of their Patron deity, B) Helping the follower of an opposing Diety, or C) Not visiting the Temple at least once a month to offer praise (with the exception of LoAs) will lose the benefits of Divine Conduit until such time as amends are made.

Mechanic: If OPs find that you are not acting in the accordance of your faith they may require an RP log of you making amends, or a short story written by you in the same light, for you to regain the use of Divine Conduit. Until such time as you have been notified that you are back in the good graces of your Deity you lose access to the Divine Conduit advantage.

Sense of Threat

This is, on pen and paper, a pretty interesting and unique ability. The ability to automatically detect lies if the person lying to you intends you or your faith harm. In a universe where we all have OOC knowledge of each other's characters intents that is an amazing ability. However, this is not that universe. It is very hard to enforce this rule because we, as players, don't always know when characters are lying. We also don't know if the liars mean our characters harm. This is a VERY hard ability to enforce/moderate. Intent is highly subjective. Is it HARM to wish to steal from the Paladin? There is no phsyical damage and it is nothing against the Paladin, they just have money.

Plus, there is the issue of not everyone knowing all of the rules. This can lead to a tangled logistics nightmare of he said/she said claims with huge swaths of RP potentially negated due to a rules ignorant misstep.

The solution here is a tricky one. If we wish to keep a similar effect we could do a something like this:

Circle of Honesty: Once per day for each time the Paladin class is chosen (Paladin x5 = 5 times per day) a paladin may extend a 15 foot circle of honesty centered on herself. One clomagatk roll is made against the clomagdef of all targets inside the circle. The Paladin is under the effects of the Lie Hear spell for as long as the person remains within the circle. The Paladin is instantly aware of those that successfully saved versus this effect.

This way the Paladin can make it clear that there is an effect making it so they can sense lies and it takes out the ambiguity of "meaning to do harm" from the effect. The exchange of being able to hit anyone with this effect, instead of just those withing to do harm, is that an attack roll has to succeed to use this advantage, and it is limited to a number of times per day. Additionally, any intended targets must be within fifteen feet and must remain inside the circle for the ability to remain in effect. A bit of balance to shift the advantage to a more universally useful state.

Conclusion

With some fairly minimal tweaks you can see how Paladin can be more fleshed out and better balanced against some of the other classes. We can remove ambiguity on their main advantage and possible give them a second one to mirror most of the other base/advanced classes.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby UnderTow on Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:30 pm

Well, seems Crow and I made a lot of the same points...

At least that gives them some validity lol.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby miyuka on Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:25 pm

oh it's been a while for paladin (and the divine sphere) but we are working on both and Paladin will be getting access to Divine sphere spells. Thanks for the input
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby miyuka on Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:13 pm

Good news and bad news. The good news is that Swan Maiden are complete and that Next up Dev will be working on Torian, Post haste. The bad news is that for the time being we cannot add divine sphere to the Paladin class and they will remain physical (unless you go hybrid) but try not to despair too much, there may be some fixes later on down the road for them. Apologies for getting hopes up on that front. Paladin and Swan Maiden will be up ASAP, just going through final edits. For now, let us hear those thoughts on Torian race.

Priestess Class will be up next. Paladin edits will be up soon so keep checking.

Still working on divine sphere sorry for slow progress


Last edited March 29 2016 @1312 eastern time
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby Rei-Kai on Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:19 pm

miyuka wrote:Good news and bad news. The good news is that Swan Maiden are complete and that Next up Dev will be working on Torian, Post haste. The bad news is that for the time being we cannot add divine sphere to the Paladin class and they will remain physical (unless you go hybrid) but try not to despair too much, there may be some fixes later on down the road for them. Apologies for getting hopes up on that front. Paladin and Swan Maiden will be up ASAP, just going through final edits. For now, let us hear those thoughts on Torian race.

Priestess Class will be up next. Paladin edits will be up soon so keep checking.

Still working on divine sphere sorry for slow progress


Well this'd be about the time when I start to get ranting. Either way, these re my thoughts.

I think it's about time Torians found their faith again. By that I mean permitting Cleric and Priest(ess) to them. Why? Well with all the gods running around running amok and stirrin shit up, you can't really deny a gods existence. Not that I think Torians ever did. And just as Torians had split between light and dark wings, supporting the gods or damning them, then it's just as likely there'd be a split on their belief systems as well. Some who still worship the gods, others who support the other opposing forces system involving Fate and Destiny. And certainly those who'd believe in both and keeping to their own faiths.

Never mind Torians who may be inducted into other faiths, believing that their Role is to become, say, a Priest at the Temple of Kirva or some other Diety. Since Torians are put out to be nomadic, it gives them more cause to learn more about the world than other races, and each Clan could choose to continue following their old gods, Sazera and Maedel, their Forces of Life system, or adopting the religion of another people if it felt right for them when settling and building a village. Which leaves the next generation to fulfil their wanderlust.

I don't see them getting Paladin. I really don't. It wouldn't fit armorwise and Torians wouldn't really fit into the Knightly system itself. Equipment wise I don't feel there's any need for change.

Now, onto what has been a big issue since the major Magi rewrite; Racial Spells. Specifically, Feather Storm and Feather Sleep. Having these taken away from Torians and gifted over to Magi was a huge deal and one still not generally accepted by the major Torian players. Feather Dart used to be a prerequisite to using Feather Storm, but that was removed for Magi. These were the two strongest Feather-based spells in the game, and the only ones even worth having. To have lost them for no more reason than to make another race more appealing to play, was simply uncalled for.

We can simply be satisfied with having access to those spells again. Not monopolizing them, but having shared access. The same given for Magi to Feather Dart and Feather Blade, and reinstatign the prerequisite for Feather Storm, which always felt more appropriate.

If you wanted to ask by numbers, there's only 4 active Magi characters over lv5. We have 14 active Torians over lv5 within the last few months. Another 10 or more within the past year, with some away due to work and/or health reasons. This is not saying there aren't Magi/Torian characters active under lv5, but anyone can see that Torians would be the ones to make the most use of these spells and are more often played than Magi. So permitting the use of [Feather Sleep] and [Feather Storm] to Torians again would be most welcome, even if they aren't exclusive.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby miyuka on Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:40 am

we actually don't make changes based on how often or not a certain class or race is played, nor were those the reasons those spells were moved around. Magi have two exclusive, Torian have 2 exclusive. We'll not be changing those spells. Your suggestions have been taken into account and considered. Thank you for the input.
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Re: Player Input to Development

Postby Rei-Kai on Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:27 pm

miyuka wrote:we actually don't make changes based on how often or not a certain class or race is played, nor were those the reasons those spells were moved around. Magi have two exclusive, Torian have 2 exclusive. We'll not be changing those spells. Your suggestions have been taken into account and considered. Thank you for the input.


So despite the fact Magi has an entire exclusive sphere to make up for them not being able to choose classes, which makes the entire idea of even having anything for them in the Racial sphere completely ridiculous, Torians are still getting shafted with the two most arbitrary useless spells because...every race gets two? Sorry, but, that doesn't make sense and we've been calling out on it being bogus for years.

Fur Spikes, Fur Armor and Sharpen Claw are all shared between Wolven, Catfolk and Vulpines. None of those three have exclusive spells for their race in the Racial Sphere. Because they all share the same traits. So, as far as I have seen over all this time, there has never been an appropriate reason for arbitrarily dividing up the Feather based spells between Torians and Magi, with only Feather Fire being shared between them and Female Sithians.
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