Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

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Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Dughal on Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:04 pm

Hello folks, your resident Mad Monk here, looking to get the ball rolling on a "Monk Order" and I figured religion would be the right place to start. If this is the wrong forum, please do let me know!

As it stands, the current Monk class seems to be based on the "eastern" Monk orders, and so I am confused as to how to set up something that is almost directly based on "Shaolin Monks" without including ANY references, direct or indirect, to Eastern Philosophy/Religion.

I was thinking of creating something from the "ground up" using modern Zen schools' as a guideline, borrowing what elements make sense in this world, and creating new ones when the old ones do not. This is of course is that this is an "adult" chat room, so having monks that require a vow of celibacy is kinda silly, I think. That would be scrapped in favor of a more dynamic system.

My current idea is to come up with the "Five Vows" and require that a Monk in this order take one of them in order to become a Monk (This is the vow of poverty requirement in the class itself) and can then choose to take the other four depending on the individual nature of their character. One of these would be chastity, as some players might enjoy being a celibate little monk girl who gets continually taken advantage of. The idea is to create a system that works within what we have.

In terms of the religious aspects, that is where I come into a problem, and would like to make sure I do not step on any toes or cause any issues. What I was going to do with this order, instead of having them be like many of the religious sects of eastern thought, go into the more philosophical ones that view everything as relative, thus removing the need for overt religious tones.

For Example; A God is only a God because it is powerful in relation to mortal beings. A God is not "all-powerful" or less there could not be multiple ones. A God is not "all-knowing" as they have been killed before. Just as mortals' are to ants, so we are to Gods, but this does not mean they are somehow holy or "better than", they are more powerful beings. To a member of this order, a Dragon and a God are much the same thing... very powerful, very potentially dangerous, but NOT something to be worshiped as greater than other things.

This removes any ability for this order to bring in its own deities, as they would seek to be shedding themselves of these incorrect ideas in order to better understand the world as it is. It would be totally counter-productive to attempt to add any kind of "God-head" figure as the head of this religion. The closest I was going to get was going to be a man simply called "Buhsso"; a teacher who first shared these lessons, and then died a very mortal death... no rising three days later, no god-hood, no transcendence; he just died. He was just a smart dude who started to share these ideas with others, and they have been passed down through the generations, and now Du`ghal would be bringing them into TLI.

Does this sound like an acceptable light to create a Monk order in? If not, what should I change?

Thanks for your feedback!
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Ehlanna on Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:53 pm

The main thing I'd say is that Monks do not follow a religion to make themselves monks they follow a way of life.
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Dughal on Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:17 pm

Ehlanna wrote:The main thing I'd say is that Monks do not follow a religion to make themselves monks they follow a way of life.


*Nods* I agree. That way of life is often ritualized to a point to reflect the nature of being a Monk... I want to make sure if I set up some kind of Monkish sect, it is not going to step on religious toes by them saying, in essence "We do not worship any one thing.", when the word "Monk" in western connotations is very much a religious thing.

Because the elements I want to use are from Eastern sources, I want to make sure its cool to do so. :)
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Stormbringer on Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:33 pm

While I can't see any objections to creating hints towards a monkish way of life, I would get nervous at concepts like orders of monks and even schools. Both imply a heirachy and a structure which goes against the concept of a monk in Belariath.

The best path for a monk here is self-determination rather than a structured non- religion; examples such as Buddhism and Shaolin all depend on the monk needing external teachers and leaders who acquire status and followers by that structure. For a monk, the easiest concept is a hermit who does not actually cut themselves off from physical interaction with society.

The only nod we give to such the passing of knowledge is that a monk can take on a sort of disciple who could, for example, be one with a starter class but who aspires towards monk as a goal for an advanced class. In OOC reality of course it is also a way for a monk to keep a slave by another name without breaching their restrictions on possessions.

So hints and suggestions about what a monk may focus on for self-development, yes. Writings which are available to monks as sources of contemplation, yes. Orders and Schools, not really. And naturally any such pointers would need to take account of the generally accepted way of life in Belariath while avoiding any sort of recognised Eastern mysticism.
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Dughal on Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:15 pm

I think I am confusing the issue with the wrong terminology, let me see if I can clear up this a little bit, and make some sense of myself! I am very good at confusing issues, you know...

Let me explain why I see it in a new light;

A monk who is by himself will almost always use the very deep and meditative texts that include a lot of symbolic mysticism to help guide him along. He might even make it up as his mind wanders and he "sees" things, that to him become as real as food or water is. This monk would, by his very nature, be the sort to read into signs and come off sounding very eastern with his statements such as;

"Do or do not, there is no try."

"There is no such thing as the 'I'. Bring me a 'self', and then we can talk about what it is."

"In the paper I see a cloud, and I see the sunshine. In the paper I see all of creation, for without any one mote, no other part is either."

"You are not a creation, You are a manifestation."

"There is no after, no before. There is no coming, there is no going. There is only here and now."

This is a solo monk in my opinion. While I do not mean to add in any Gods, Bodhisattvas, or other deities, these all smack of an eastern "religion" to me. Perhaps this is what you mean when you say "suggesting" eastern thought without presenting it directly. To me, this is the religion, and all the dogma and stuff is sort of interchangeable and superfluous.

The group monk however, focuses more on stability and harmony, avoiding the philosophical aspects as a general rule because they are somewhat useless. If two people are in conflict over who should tend the horses, what does it matter what the weight of a soul is; or its dimensions? To a group monk, the whole point is not to learn in the abstract or gain some personal understanding, but to learn to function in harmony with a group of disparate individuals. This does necessitate a more formalized order, of course.

Of course there is a lot of overlap between these two different approaches, but in truth I have no idea what it is that TLI monks are supposed to be like, as the website is less than clear. Could you please help me to understand? I want to play the monk properly and within the context it is supposed to be, but I am rather unsure how to move forward in that without either;

1) Making him sound like an ancient Zen master
2) Developing a community of like minded individuals

If there is a third option, one that is more in line with your idea of the world, please let me know! I I am aware this is far from a popular class, but perhaps if I knew the direction to take it, I could help to flesh it out a little more, and attract more attention to it, which I think would be fun!

Thanks for your time and attention into this matter, it really is appreciated.
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Stormbringer on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:18 pm

OK so there are two points here:

Point 1: If you contend that any person anywhere who follows a path of self-determination via contemplation and meditation is going to sound like the examples you gave, then your labelling of such pronouncements as being 'eastern' is clearly wrong. They would be international and as such, providing the monk character makes them up instead of quoting from the dummies guide to zen, then why should it be a problem?

On the other hand, if you contend that a westerner who follows a path of self-determination via contemplation and meditation is going to start making cryptic comments that are significantly different, then you need to identify those differences and take them into account with your character.

Then as a secondary stage, if you believe that someone born into a somewhat westernised culture but with significant differences, such as one who grew up on Belariath, is going to vary their output based on those cultural influences, then you need to regionalise any pearls of wisdom to take that into account.

All of the above would show anyone that a player was taking his character seriously and not just nabbing chunks of popular eastern philosophy to justify calling themselves a monk. If you think about the effect of location, society and culture upon a monkish meditation and decide that none of those would vary the results of staring at a wall for six hours, then that is equally valid because the output cannot be considered to be constrained by location and as such cannot be regionalised as eastern.

Point 2: It seems to be human nature that any time someone wants to organise some aspect of the game that was previously minimally defined so as to allow players to find their own interpretation, that person feels the urge to create a private army, a guild, a society, an order, a school, a club or some other formal grouping. As a generalisation, these then lead to strata of status, fees, initiation rites, qualification, rules, oaths, and all the other inhibitory bureaucracy that we keep trying to minimise in a game that is largely based upon the self-determination of individualistic characters.

Any sort of formal teaching of monks becomes an order or a school and that isn't something I believe we need adding to the game. Individual mentor/student is the model to follow. This can be reinforced by web pages which contain optional background on how a character could be played, what the character may choose to believe, or what historical influences they may choose to follow. But not an in-game order of monks.
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Dughal on Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:11 pm

I have just a few follow up questions and points, but I think I got the bulk of my question answered, which is that a Monk is allowed to have whatever sorts of personal ideas he might have about the shape of the universe, but he can in no way create a formal school.

That is fine! :)

It means in a "formal" sense that I am going to draw from Hinayana sources as opposed to Mahayana . Hinayana , in my understanding, states that, "I alone am responsible for my own enlightenment", Vs Mahayana sources that seem to state, "Until every-thing experiences' enlightenment, no-thing does; so we must move forward together." These two conclusions would lead a person to lead tow very different lives. It seems to make sense to me that Mahayana would simply not exist in the TLI world, given the frame work you have laid down. Oh, and I use these terms not with the idea of ever presenting them in the game, but they are ones that help me to understand what is being talked about.

Western Monks tend to follow "God" to some degree or another, in my understanding of things. To use them as a guideline for a non-religiously oriented monk seemed somewhat flawed, as then I would be better off going into the Priest class, and following one of the various deities that populates TLI. While Monks do differ from priests, the absolute faith in the supernatural higher power is the "divining line" for me. Yes, there are Catholic Mystics such as Miester Eckhart and more contemporary ones like Daniel Berrigan who seem to be less committed to the Dogma of their faith and more committed to the deeper meanings; however I find that in the western traditions, these people are far few and far less well known then dogmatics. Of course a character like "Rasputin" was hardly known for his faith as much as his actions, and he too called himself a monk. However, it is my understanding that if you are going to preach or hold to a specific set of tenants and dogmas, you should go the route of the Priest. Is that an accurate assumption?

I think we are now "singing off the same page" so to speak, and I really do want to thank you for helping me get my head around how to best move forward in this gaming world with my character. :) I am going to keep him focused on a personal path of self discovery and realization, while occasionally taking a student or two to guide for a while; but no requirement or onus of responsibility to build a school, following or formal training center.
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Re: Wanting to work on a Monk(ish) religion, is that allowed?

Postby Stormbringer on Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:36 am

Yes in the west 'monk' has almost entirely been hijacked to mean a member of a christian order who follow a restricted lifestyle within a closed community. That's not what we want of course. As you say, the best interpretation is an individual seeking self-enlightenment. Quite possibly one who would even resent wasting valuable time on trying to teach others when he could be improving his own understanding. But that aspect is for the individual of course, as is what they choose to have by way of revelations in their study.
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