Relationships

[Cangelosi]

I'm going to add my doubts on this. Wouldn't a marriage registrar be more appropriate than the ISA? After all, concubines tend to be more or less voluntary in this fantasy environment, in contrast with the Gorean-styled harems. True there are those that take their slave collars willingly, but I do believe this sort of clutters up the ISA a little bit more than it should be. Poor Tawny would go bald! BALD, I tell you!

Save the kitten.

[StormWind]

I have to agree with Tawny here. I can see the use of the differentiation between slave and mate, and I understand the point of a concubine, but I see no reason why the ISA should get involved. This is why they are the Imperial -Slave- Authority, and not simply the hall of records.

[Krom]

The implementation of the Concubine into the game draws mixed feelings obviously between many individuals. My person opinion on it is as well mixed.

ICly, I can see it being a valid piece of declaration. A stepping stone between slave and not, but also a way to stop those who are slaves now from being just fuck-bunnies and toys instead of the true terminology of slave.

OOCly, I see this as a way to dart slave rules while retaining the same desired effect. Concubines I am assuming will be allowed to become managers, use of weapons, combative, etc. This is okay, but it also is a way to get people to avoid the slave irestrictions by still retaining a sense of ownership. I think overall, it should be fine but more refinement as to the declaration of what a concubine is and how it is to be viewed in game terms. Also I would agree with gwyneth to indicicate concubines with [] as a marker as many gorean channels have utilized that to denote male slaves. It functions for mIRC nicknames and should pose no problem but a marker OOCly.

This has potential and a valid solution to try and stop the lover collars and boyfriend/girlfriend treating of what some find to be a very serious thing (slavery).

In regards to Tawny, the ISA will need redefined to accomodate this change. It -does- fit into that basic framework and easy for implementation through desdaemona as well. The ISA is basically a glorified hall of records anyways in terms of slave registration. There are still funding of holding a concubine and as such is deemed a taxable piece of property which again, falls into ISA.

The argument that it is not on the website is flawed and foolish to say the least. The website is a guide, not the Bible. It is a work that is continually changing. The ISA -needs- to be changed to accomodate the changes of the game and the direction of the player base. This would include the ISA accepting the data filing of registered concubines. We do -not- need more shops or other areas for people to find work in. The ISA staff is short list as it is and difficult to find registrars on a good day.

I personally move that the ISA becomes redefined and perhaps call it The Hall of Records for property taxation and other things ICly talking. Nothing says the ISA must be -one- function only. If it is expanded, it may promote more facets of roleplay and use it more than just going to register or decollar slaves.

[Tawny]

As for using the website being foolish then maybe you should rewrite it. Not only are you saying those who visit the website dont know what kind of game they are getting into but for years I was told to leave certain aspects out of this game. The only place I see where Concubines are paid for or held like slaves are in the Gorean-styled harems which is again something that has always been frowned upon in the game as far as I was told. As for Tawny handling it, that is not a problem. But it seem like a far step over from the ISA handles slavery to the ISA being a hall of records for the empire. Give the IG something to do and let them register Concubines. I dont understand paying for a willing lover. As for it being hard to find a ISA worker on, Seems I hear that about every shop in this game including the Inn. More workers dont mean they will be available when you want them. Too many workers simply mean people getting paid when they dont work.

[Krom]

As for using the website being foolish then maybe you should rewrite it yourself Krom.

I contribute on the development boards that do update the website. This is not the point.

Not only are you saying those who visit the website dont know what kind of game they are getting into but for years I was told to leave certain aspects out of this game. The only place I see where Concubines are paid for or held like slaves are in the Gorean-styled harems which is again something that has always been frowned upon in the game.

Gorean traditions have never been prohibited nor discouraged. On the same hand, it is not screaming encouragement either. Slavery holds many types and facets for people to explore. Gorean is a form just as playtoys are as well as servitude workers is a type. Many kinds and that has always been promoted in TLI game structure.

As for Tawny handling it, that isnt not a problem. But it seem like a far step over from the ISA handles slavery to the ISA being a hall of records for the empire.

Hall of Records is poor choice of terminology, however they do hold many of the records and it does deal in relationships and property in that term. I do not see it as out of the question or that far fetched that ISA would also work to claim more 'taxes' from other forms of relationships or property declarations.

Give the IG something to do and let them register Concubines.

How do soldier units coincide with registrations of people relationships and personal interactions exactly?

I dont understand paying for a willing lover.

Just because you do not see the validity of it does not mean that it is not a viable solution. It works very well ICly for say Red Fist hierarchy which is on the website as well. It fits and is a very applicable. This is merely one example. Everyone has different tastes and degrees of ideology of relationships.

As for it being hard to find a ISA worker on, Seems I hear that about every shop in this game including the Inn. More workers dont mean they will be available when you want them. Too many workers simply mean people getting paid when they dont work.

Too many workers... I do not think that is truly possible. It should promote more interactions within a shop and more workers equates to more people able to open the shop/business throughout the different time zones that we face. I fail to make the connection.


Ultimately, it is clear you do not like it and it is noted. I believe you took my words WAY out of context or original intent to take it as a personal insult which it was never meant to be. I continue to hold to my opinion and will respect yours as well.

[MidniteFym]

After reading this whole thread in it's entirety. I like the idea of thew concubines and the relationship they would have but I also feel that tawny is right and this doesn't quite fall under the ISA so why not just open a new records hall. We could use a hall of records there concubines could be registered and maybe even training offered for them to teach them how to please a lover properly hell we teach slaves why not give seductresses and others a role and let them teach concubines how to please. the new hall of records could also keep track of bondings since that seems to be sorely lacking in being posted like I see it used to be in days past. I am sure there will be other grey areas that open up in the future needed a place to go and maybe a new records hall would fill this need now and a future one. Since the game is all about stimulating role play I say we settle the dispute by just opening a shop in town for these things to be handled that way the ISA is not overwhelmed and it would offer new jobs and more role play and hopefully appease everyone. just a suggestion

[Kaytoo]

Well, after reading through there are some additional valid points....To those I would then say altering one aspect of my posts....Why have a tag or collar at all past putting something in your description so concubines are not abused moment to moment (iow Bob corners Mary, she shouts she is Tom's concubine....5 minutes later Tom corners Mary, she then shouts she is Bob's). Therefor if the case, then there is no need to register such a "choice" and can be disolved as easily.

All I hope comes from this is that slavery firms up dramatically. More so that slaves become what a slave really is, and that is giving up or losing all free will (barring naturally OOC issues)......I hear people all the time like to spout off how slavery in BDSM relationships is about setting X limitations then living to them. Well frankly that is simply being a submissive. A slave be they forced or by choice real life no longer has options. By force it's obvious how horrific that can be, but when done by choice it is one made by a very select few who take a lot of pride in serving.

Granted, there are naturally conditions and limitations set by chosing the proper owner, how they are establishing those. Yet frankly here in TLI I'd venture 90% of the slaves are simply submissives or less (toward the free end of spectrum). Very few play what a slave is be it forced or by choice. Now that's not saying if you want to play a forced slave fighting tooth and nail that's wrong....Yet it abuses the station to play a by choice slave and run around as anything less then a full blown slave.

In the end, that's fine....don't like the idea of being a full blown slave great!....Then play a concubine where you can establish the limitations to your desire. I think it is a great idea.....To honor those who are slaves.

I'd really like to see concubines to get slavery here "closer" to what it really is.

K2

[Tawny]

It was not taken as a personal insult. Yes the ISA holds records for property but not relationships. Maybe its because of my view ic as well as occ of slavery. But a slave is property not a relationship. A relationship tends to be something one see's a loving, or at least some do. All I am trying to understand is why one would be expected to pay taxes on a mate. What is the person gaining for paying to register the Concubine. They are not slaves so the ISA would not be offering anything in return for the money paid. Since they are not slaves they are not protected by the ISA and only IG would go hunt down one that is kidnapped. I guess I just dont see this as something that is needed since as you said Krom people all play their slaves in their own way. Owners and slaves have no hard sit rules to follow and that is what keeps slavery a active part of this game. Some play themselfs as loving their slave and some see that as wrong. But since there is no hard set rules then people see it as being able to play as they wish when it comes to how they interact with the slave their money paid for. What is the advantage to paying for a Concubine when one can have as many ic lovers as they want for free? If this is going to be put into affect them I feel the need for some hard set rules on how a slave is to be rped. As it stands right now all attempts I have made to get set rules on slavery have been met with a no because it put to much rules on the creativity of the players. Can the ISA handle registering Concubines? Yes. Can Tawny deal with this IC? yes. But ooc I still dont get the whole idea. Maybe I am seeing Concubines wrong but the definitions I find all refer to a willing live in lover. And I still dont see what the player gains with paying for a Concubine IC. Can someone please explain that to me.

[Almondus]

Well this is an interesting idea.

As far as I understand it, it seems that this would be another way to ‘formalize’ a relationship between characters. There would be some benefit to the owner in that they could have the IG track down their concubine if someone had detained them, and be a bit of an ego boost to the owner for having someone walk about with their tag on.

So what happens when a concubine runs off and attacks someone, looses, and is detained by the person they assaulted? The IG gets them out of the mess that they brought upon themselves that’s what. It’s one of a few sticky subjects that could happen with this system. I like the idea of having concubines, I think just about every guy does, but implementing them might be done a different way.

Since there are no set rules in slavery, why even bother with having an official ‘concubine’ distinction? If there truly is a large part of the player base that enjoys playing with slaves as ‘toys’ and a large portion of those playing slaves are unsatisfied with the limitations placed upon them as slaves, why not just remove the restrictions on them? If that is the direction that the players want to take why not let them?
Namely; allow slaves to attack freepersons.

I understand that part of the reasoning for this restriction in the past was so that a lower level character couldn’t collar a higher level character and have them as a body guard. Now that restrictions have been done away with about who can attack who, this convention doesn’t really seem needed. After all, that’s what a concubine (as it has been described ) would be in a way. They would be someone that a character could have as property that could guard them, while retaining some protection from the IG itself. Even if that wasn’t the stated purpose behind it, this abuse could very well happen.

To those that say that having a distinction between slave and concubine will make slaves more ‘slavelike’ I’ll ask this; How? The only way to do that would be to set hard rules for how slaves should be treated by their masters as Tawny suggested. That makes little sense in that one of the reasons that slavery here is so successful is that it can come about in so many ways, for so many reasons. Besides, just who’d enforce them? Since when does the way that other people RP their SL effect yours? The argument that having concubines will allow the people that want to play slaves more able to play them is a bit flawed. These things should be worked out OOC before the collar is taken to make sure that the pair gets what their looking for. No rules change will get around this simple fact.

To those that say that say that it’s a needed nitch for RP I’ll ask; why can’t a concubine be considered a kind of slave to begin with? It seems the root for the push to having a separate distinction is to keep the benefits of slavery without paying the costs. The RP side of having a concubine can be played out IC as it is. Having an official stamp that you belong to someone can already be done with tattoos, or with wizard marks.

I like seeing new things brought into the game. It’s a sign that the developers are trying to listen to what the player base wants and are willing to work with them so that everyone can fully enjoy the time they spend here. I just thought I’d bring these points up to bounce off of everyone to get a bit of feedback and see if I’m completely missing the point of this or am out in left field.

Thanks for reading.
Alren

[Dalahlaleeah]

All I am trying to understand is why one would be expected to pay taxes on a mate

A concubine is less than a bonded mate and shares several common attributes with a slave. But they are also less restricted than a slave would be. The exact nature of the relationship between owner and concubine is left to the individual players involved, so they may vary from being considered minor wives/husbands to being in a relationship which mirrors slavery but without so many public restrictions. In view of the nature of roleplay in Belariath, it would be most normal to think of a concubine as trending towards the almost-slave rather than the almost-mate but that is for individual players to define for themselves.

A concubine is not a mate. It is an owned person who is a lover. If you look at the word others have used - harem - then you would see that it is not a mate. A concubine was a (I'll use woman here since I am referencing history) woman who was either sold or given to a man for his use. They did not do the normal slave chores (I.E cook, clean, laundry, garden, etc), their "job", if you will, was to be ready to service their owner whenever he wanted. Now, it was not uncommon for the owner to also have a wife, whose status was above that of the concubines. Usually, the wife was the one in charge of the harem to make sure it ran smoothly.

[Tawny]

Ok I understand abit better now thank you. But if they are a slave then why should they not be charged the same as any other slave when registered. Why should there be slack rules on one kind of slave and not on the other. That is where this is heading. If they are not a mate then they are simply a slave that the master cares abit more for maybe. I still dont see a need to make a totally new title for what is already in the game. If there isnt hard set rules on how to rp a slave then people are free to rp a slave and owner as they wish. What I think I see is people wanting to be called a slave but not have to follow the simply rules set for slaves now. I dont think we need to allow slaves to attack free people that just wont be right. Body guard slaves were removed due to the fact that they were breaking the law by attacking free people. A slave is below free people that is why they are not allowed to attack a free person without getting into trouble. If you take away all rules on slaves then there is no reason to have a slave at all. If you want a collar then you should accept the rules for wearing one. A concubine is not a mate but a owned person who is a lover. There is plenty of that already and it isnt hurting anything now. Noone ever said a slave cant be a lover to their owner, in fact a slave is a lover, friend, confidant, and companion or anything else a owner wishes them to be in the game as it is right now. If what Dalahlaleeah is saying is correct that sounds like nothing more than a sex slave to me.

[Almondus]

I could just kiss you Tawny. Well said.



Alren

[Infernis]

I think what is being missed here is that a new category of relationship is being added for a distinct reason.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that slaves are going to see new requirements in regard to public behavior that many current slaves will not be willing to go along with.

Something to think about.


~I~

[Tawny]

For now all i will say is this. I have tried in the past to get rules set for slaves and was told no, because it would stifle players creativity. As for a new relationship being formed... one doesnt register a relationship, one registers a slave.

[Kerianna]

I love this idea, and I absolutely agree with Infernis, particularly in the pay issue - that should be entirely between the concubine and their owner.

As far as the ISA being involved, I can see both sides. It doesn't really fit specifically as the ISA stands, but where else would it be registered? Perhaps we could have a new registrar type office, maybe linked to the Reeve's office? Or for that matter, we could just have it done as an OOC thing, perhaps a !give self <recipient> command to make yourself someone's concubine...