Relationships

Questions and suggestions relating to the playing of individual characters rather than the game world

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Re: Relationships

Postby Augustus on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:13 pm

again i say approve it :p
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Re: Relationships

Postby Tawny on Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:28 pm

I have to agree with the ISA not being allowed to change a slave collar into a Concubine collar. I see no reasoning behind that ever happening. I have one question tho that I dont think has come up... Will the owner of a concubine be charged a monthly fee as is a normal slave owner? Also will the normal slave having to be in collar 30 days before uncollaring apply to the Concubine collar?
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I can only repeat that I'm very much in favor of this new 'redefining' of sorts. If for no other reason than to set down, once and for all, just what is expected of a 'slave' in public. We've always been very lenient and vague in the past, to allow for player creativity, but I think it'd do a world of good to set down just how the 'world' in general looks upon slaves and sets up a standard of expected behavior...

I completely agree with that statement. And Stormbringer already said it will be getting done once the Concubine thing is all ironed out and put into play. I think doing it will help define slavery in the game alot and is something that has needed to be done long ago. Along with what is expected of a slave I think we need to set down punishments that are followed as well if the slave misbehaves. Too many slaves in this game run about as if they are free people and use the collar as a way to have someone who will protect them when they get into trouble. That isnt what a slaver owner is for, unless the slave is hurt through no fault of their own.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Dalahlaleeah on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:38 am

I actually do see a reason to allow a slave to be bumped up to concubine. Perhaps the relationship between Master and slave has evolved and he wants to "reward" the slave? Perhaps he is already bonded but has fallen in love with the slave and wishes her not to be less than the mud on the boots of society? There are reasons.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Krom on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:52 am

I am actually in agreement with Dalah on this.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Infernis on Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:37 am

It's funny, I happen to see it in the opposite way.

If anything, Inf would use a concubine's collar to see if the girl in question can 'handle' being a slave.

Of course, to his way of thinking, a slave's collar is something for a girl to work toward, not be seen as 'mud under your boots', as some would put it.


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Re: Relationships

Postby Dalahlaleeah on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:20 am

The reason I say there are reasons is because of my understanding of how the levels of this would work. Bonded mate, concubine, slave - with slave being the lowest. I understand some view being a slave as a dignified, honorable position to strive and work hard for - but that is not the general view from my understanding. I have a slave char that is the lowest of the low - she is allowed no opinion, she is not allowed to talk unless asked a question (and even then giving a verbal answer could earn her a beating), she eats what is given to her and when, she sleeps when allowed and where. She is, quite literally, the mud on her Master's boots.

If a slave is the low man on the totem pole, so to speak, then yes - there are reasons to allow a Master (or Mistress) to come in and raise a slave to concubine. The only difference between that and what happens when a Master/Mistress walks in and releases a slave to bond with them is the concubine is still owned.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Tawny on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:56 am

I think you misunderstand Dalahlaleeah. Stormbringers first post already stated a slave can be made a concubine in the first month after it enters the game. What I was speaking of is a forced move by the ISA. Avarwraith wrote
A question has come up for me during a recent OOC conversation.

Let us say you have a character, for instance, a duessa. Who has pledged herself to a Master, and who serves his interests (and him) religiously, yet who does not act much like a slave outside of that.

Now, this character would not fit into the area of Concubine, she is not her Master's lover, she does not profess to love him, she is his slave, she devotes herself to him, and he considers her his property, not his lover. IE, he does not use her only for sex, and she is fully submissive to him, not just sexually submissive to him.

However, she doesn't see herself as 'slave to the world', and will likely do all the things that slaves should not do.

Now ICly, if someone was to punish her for this, that would probably be working right into what she -wants-, being a painslut and a duessa, as well as one who likes to push boundaries. And this is fine with me. Someone wants to teach her to 'obey slave rules' you have my complete ooc permission to do so.

But what worries me, is that this might be rolled to the ISA and then she is forcibly stripped of her {} and forced into whatever concubines are eventually forced to wear. Thus limiting the RP rather than expanding it for her.

Will the ISA be able to force a slave to become a concubine? When both slave and Master know the possible ramifications (punishment, fines, forced slave lessons with ISA trainers) and accept them as a part of the deal that they accepted when the collar was originally put in place?

It is to this that I say the ISA would and should not be allowed to change the collar.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Belson on Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:29 am

* dodges things falling from
the ceiling and moves on *
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Re: Relationships

Postby miyuka on Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:54 am

No one is going to be forced to play a certain way, there's just going to be IC consequences (which there already is) for a slave acting against the public IC laws. IF such thing even gets reported. IF a char is a slave and they want to act all non-slavey because that's what the player wants then an OP is not going to get onto the person about it. ICly if someone sees it and reports it to the slave authorities then yes, but again, that particular aspect already exsists. It's not a change to how a slave will act IC just how they should act and be seen...which honestly I thought it was already like that.

The concubine thing is just so people who have a slave and master relationship that's more like boyfriend and girlfriend can have that relationship. I guess it's like adding another tier into the hiearchy of the world. It shouldn't affect the way you or your slaves RP.
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Re: Relationships

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:32 am

Ok, everyone take a deep breath, and relax just a bit. let's not jump at the slave rules that are not even posted yet, wait and see what's proposed and take it a step at a time. This whole debate is starting to remind gwyn of when the ooc consent for fighting rules changes happened. There was a lot of "we're all doomed" talk then too, a lot of thinking, at the time that all the high level chars were going to squash all the low level chars for no reason. if gwyn remembers correctly even Master StormBringer was not convinced it would work, and yet, we faced the change as adults, and the incidences of death and serious injuries actually went *down* from what it had been. (and as a healer, gwyneth can assure you that's a true fact). Fewer fights are diced, there's more free form and room for creative role play... and for lower level chars to beat high level at Their own games.

So, concubines, they don't seem like a bad idea to gwyn, nor does the future prospect of delineating slave behavior just a bit more. it leaves less room for misunderstandings of the rules, and wasted time on charges that should never be laid. it makes fewer headaches for Master, slave, and ISA alike, potentially, especially for those slaves who aren't looking to get into trouble. and more rp opportunities for those who *like* to get into trouble. But, as the 'new slave rules" are still a future unknown, let's wait to be Chicken Little until we actually see the big blue chunks heading our way.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Kaytoo on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:41 am

Tonight in OOC truly showed how misunderstood this issue is. Personally, when you boil it all down IMLTHO it seems to be nothing more then a new option added. One that would shift many of the current slaves and hence masters to nothing more then a new "name (concubine)", and that those wishing to use the old name of "slave" may or may not become more regimented or defined.

The whole issue rediculously becomes mute when you pose "what if there are no changes to slaves, yet a new more restricted group called concubines/Bobs/goobers/whatever came about"....and suddenly there is silence........Naturally, it's somewhat opposite due to nothing more then a name change and split of play types.....Concubines becoming the slaves of old, slaves becoming the new more controled version.......Nothing really past splitting up "slaves" into two groups at the players discression as to which.

I simply am not getting the upset over a name change which really is nothing more then A, B, C to define style.

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Re: Relationships

Postby Stormbringer on Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:52 am

Krom wrote:
Slaves in TLI are not completely in line with their traditional role either and would you really expect to see a Viceroy / Baron selling erotic underwear in a bazaar?


I am a man of many talents... You should see what i can do with a golf club, ice cube, and stuffed penguin.

Now IC, I can see this giving a new dimension, a concubine may not need to defer to free people who are not their Master, but that doesn't mean everyone else won't treat them like chattel. They almost become half- a citizen, or second-class. Slaves are hardly counted as a citizen at all, if at that, they are akin to work mules and the cart which that mule pulls.


This is a very good idea of what I see it as. Basically indeed a Concubine = 2nd class citizen, Slave = property, not citizen.


1. The penguin's relatives are still looking for you!

2. Agreed, public perception of a concubine will likely be less than that of a free person. It would be nice if everyone saw roleplay opportunities like that.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Stormbringer on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:17 pm

Will the owner of a concubine be charged a monthly fee as is a normal slave owner? Also will the normal slave having to be in collar 30 days before uncollaring apply to the Concubine collar?


The fee is one of the things I asked to be discussed in here. I see the ISA requirements for collaring and uncollaring being the same between concubine and slave except for the fee, since a concubine needs less oversight.

I completely agree with that statement. And Stormbringer already said it will be getting done once the Concubine thing is all ironed out and put into play. I think doing it will help define slavery in the game alot and is something that has needed to be done long ago. Along with what is expected of a slave I think we need to set down punishments that are followed as well if the slave misbehaves. Too many slaves in this game run about as if they are free people and use the collar as a way to have someone who will protect them when they get into trouble. That isnt what a slaver owner is for, unless the slave is hurt through no fault of their own.


The wide variety of relationships that had to be accomodated by slave collar made it difficult to set tighter rules for how slaves behaved in public. I expect the review of slave to include definite rules and punishments for both slave and owner.

I actually do see a reason to allow a slave to be bumped up to concubine. Perhaps the relationship between Master and slave has evolved and he wants to "reward" the slave? Perhaps he is already bonded but has fallen in love with the slave and wishes her not to be less than the mud on the boots of society? There are reasons.


Yes, and yes to Infernis opposing view. They are both valid roleplay options and between the players themselves.

I think you misunderstand Dalahlaleeah. Stormbringers first post already stated a slave can be made a concubine in the first month after it enters the game. What I was speaking of is a forced move by the ISA


I actually said that for the first month after concubines are introduced slaves can make the switch with no penalty. That's a one-time offer not an open ended one, so that players can adjust without any problems. After that month there needs to be a re-registering to change status along with a fee paid to the ISA.

One of the reasons that I have enjoyed TLI for so long is the freedom that it allows the characters to build their own relationships and play them out. With this new system I am afraid that it is going to turn into a staple of " all slaves have to act like this no matter what. "


I wouldn't wish to interfere in how a master and slave interact together. That is a roleplay freedom of expression and the reason I specified this is not a gorean channel. Any rules will relate to how a slave is entitled to behave in public especially in how they behave towards free people. Again that does not force a slave to a limited set of behaviors. Any society defines what people can do in public. As an American citizen, you can do practically anything in public but you also know that if you do certain things and get caught, you will face a penalty. Any review of slavery will be focused on that aspect, not on how master and slave interact in private.

Ok, everyone take a deep breath, and relax just a bit. let's not jump at the slave rules that are not even posted yet, wait and see what's proposed and take it a step at a time. This whole debate is starting to remind gwyn of when the ooc consent for fighting rules changes happened. There was a lot of "we're all doomed" talk then too, a lot of thinking, at the time that all the high level chars were going to squash all the low level chars for no reason. if gwyn remembers correctly even Master StormBringer was not convinced it would work, and yet, we faced the change as adults, and the incidences of death and serious injuries actually went *down* from what it had been. (and as a healer, gwyneth can assure you that's a true fact). Fewer fights are diced, there's more free form and room for creative role play... and for lower level chars to beat high level at Their own games.

So, concubines, they don't seem like a bad idea to gwyn, nor does the future prospect of delineating slave behavior just a bit more. it leaves less room for misunderstandings of the rules, and wasted time on charges that should never be laid. it makes fewer headaches for Master, slave, and ISA alike, potentially, especially for those slaves who aren't looking to get into trouble. and more rp opportunities for those who *like* to get into trouble. But, as the 'new slave rules" are still a future unknown, let's wait to be Chicken Little until we actually see the big blue chunks heading our way.


Thank you for the voice of sanity!
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Re: Relationships

Postby Stormbringer on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:44 pm

It seems fairly obvious that concubinage has a place in the game. Not everyone will agree with it and not everyone will wish to play it. That's their choice. Not everyone wants to play bonding or slavery or rape either but they have the freedom to avoid those aspects of play without imposing their own preferences on others. So too can those who don't want to either own or be a concubine simply not include it in their personal play.

I'm not going to lock this topic but the assumption is that concubine will become available as an option before too long. I'm going to start a new topic for aspects of the concubine rules which need deciding. Slave review will not be considered until concubine is finalised. So just use this topic here if you want to ask or suggest things relating to the wider playing of concubine within the game.
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Re: Relationships

Postby Istoaj on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:02 pm

I think the cost for a concubine should be 50 to register one, and 5 per month...half the cost of a normal slave. I like to follow the KISS philosophy...
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