Concubines

Questions and suggestions relating to the playing of individual characters rather than the game world

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Re: Concubines

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:06 pm

Except the ISA gives out leather collars for slaves, and we've got some slaves with very ornately made (and expensive) leather collars already in existence... which is going to get confusing. That's why i like the 'chain mail style' choker/collars for concubines, so far as gwyn knows, there are no slaves with them already, and they can easily be made to look more elegant/'princessey' which seems to fit concubines better than a traditional style collar.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Tawny on Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:41 pm

I really dont see an need for there to be certain collars for slaves and certain collars for concubines. The tag on the collar is what well tell the general public what the person is. The collars the ISA give out for free upon registration of a slave are leather and its always been up to the owner if they wanted to buy any other type of collar. But if people really wish a different type of ""collar"" why not have the concubine wear a necklace with a tag pendant on it? A necklace of whatever metal the ""owner"" wishes to buy. Collars are not normally a chain necklace with a pendant tag.
Just my thoughts on this.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Thria on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:48 am

I still dont see why it's all focused on the neck. Give them a belt. Some cuffs. Anklets. Dont use the same symbol for different concepts.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Kerianna on Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:02 am

Many of the people who will become concubines already have collars, many of them ornate, enchanted, etc. The argument works both ways. And for many of them (myself included), the collar is an important symbol.

Really, I don't see why it'd be so hard to just have different types of tags, like Tawny says and I've been advocating all along. Then no one's left out, everyone gets to be as creative and such as they want, but it's still plenty easy to tell who's a slave and who's a concubine (even moreso than wearing or not wearing a collar, since there are other ISA approved marks for slaves already and quite a few free people wear collars for fashion).
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Re: Concubines

Postby Thria on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:39 pm

So your argument is based on "They already have them".... They're already slaves too, should they stay slaves?

You're inventing something -new-... USE something -new-...

Is it really that hard for the ISA/SS to arrange replacing the enchanted collar with an enchanted <blank>, for X amount of time until the new system is balanced out? (That, by the way, is a rhetorical question. No, it's not.)
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Re: Concubines

Postby Stormbringer on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:43 pm

This seems a very minor issue, to generate so much discussion.

I don't expect the majority of concubines will even *want* a collar since it would make them look from a distance like a lower order of being. If they do, let them have a different style of tag as Tawny said.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Thria on Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:12 pm

The Master has spoken.

So, lets change subjects... pulled the original post back up and i'll give some thoughts. *gets out red pen* ;P

Exactly how a character can move between concubine and slave status after the first month's introductory period

IC'ly or OOC'ly?
OOC'ly consent posts of course will be required.
A month must have passed since the last status change (free-conc-slave in any direction).
Fee to be applied as per slave registration (Since presumably there is as much paperwork involved in changing status as there is registering to begin with, and that said paperwork/ISA time is what the fee covers).
IC'ly... hmm. There is a slight differentiation here in that a slave need not be present for the ISA to formalize the enslavement (at least, thats what i recall of ISA procedure. Is this still the case?)... I however think that as a concubine retains their free person state, that they SHOULD be required to be present. (In fact, I would argue that the 'owner's presence is the unneeded one in this state change).
- An event or storyline will be introduced to bring concubines into the game

Would have to start with an Imperial Decree, being that it's an administrative change... but associated events would be a good idea - an open ISA event to allow the transition...

- Following the introduction of concubines, existing slaves who wish to switch to concubine will have a one month grace period when they can apply for an immediate (subject to ISA staff availability) change. No extra waiting times or fees but no refunds either.
- Both owner and slave must post OOC consent to the switch.
These two tied together. Just a note i'd make would be that the grace period is extended in the event that OOC consent is posted within the month, but ISA workers are unavailable until afterward. (Though a limit on the extension should also be imposed).

- Following that one month grace period there will be set requirements to switch between concubine and slave

Are we thinking... something beyond the standard slave registration procedure?

- New concubines will have to follow the full registration process from day one
defining 'new concubines' as 'any free person becoming a concubine, as well as any slave initiating becoming a concubine beyond the initial grace period'.

Additionally are we applying the 'entering the game with a slave' mechanic to concubines as well? It would seem the appropriate thing to do.
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Re: Concubines

Postby kitten on Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:15 pm

- An event or storyline will be introduced to bring concubines into the game


I would like to try being involved with this, as Amalthea has been speaking with a few people IC, trying to do something so simple as explaining her role among her Redfist traditions. Not sure if it would be much to the final decisions on Concubines, but it could possibly be the beginnings of people learning of how some tribes or clans have non-slaves that still are Owned by a person without actually being a collared slave.

As for other Concubine descisions, I think steering away from collars for them is a better path to follow. Back when Nanthalion was a darker landscape of roleplay, free persons feared wearing anything that appeared as a collar. They did not want to be mistaken for a slave.

Concubines are mainly free persons that are submissive in nature towards a particular person, not to every "john" that walked the lands. Everything that they did away from that person in matters of sexual context, was by permission of said person. Normally by the "john" personally asking the "owner" to spend that time with the "concubine".
Again, just my thoughts towards the concept of Concubine. I see it as Sultans in the desert or even some Roman style of noble houses. Just yell if I'm seeing completely wrong.

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Re: Concubines

Postby Tawny on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:21 am

IC'ly... hmm. There is a slight differentiation here in that a slave need not be present for the ISA to formalize the enslavement (at least, thats what i recall of ISA procedure. Is this still the case?)... I however think that as a concubine retains their free person state, that they SHOULD be required to be present. (In fact, I would argue that the 'owner's presence is the unneeded one in this state change).


Even tho a Concubine is a free person, For the change to happen the owner should have to be there since its a slave saying...Hey my master said i could. No I believe a owner must be there in order for the change to take place, Simply because they are still a slave until the time the owners changes them to concubine. The ISA would not likely take a slaves word for such even tho papers are filed.

Are we thinking... something beyond the standard slave registration procedure?


No, I wouldnt think so.

defining 'new concubines' as 'any free person becoming a concubine, as well as any slave initiating becoming a concubine beyond the initial grace period'.


I agree with this fully.

Additionally are we applying the 'entering the game with a slave' mechanic to concubines as well? It would seem the appropriate thing to do.


I would think that would be the right thing to do as well.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Stormbringer on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:18 pm

Even tho a Concubine is a free person, For the change to happen the owner should have to be there since its a slave saying...Hey my master said i could. No I believe a owner must be there in order for the change to take place, Simply because they are still a slave until the time the owners changes them to concubine. The ISA would not likely take a slaves word for such even tho papers are filed.


Makes it simpler if they both have to be present. It's not like a society where you fill in tax returns by post or online.

No, I wouldnt think so.


Agreed

I agree with this fully.


Agreed

I would think that would be the right thing to do as well.


Agreed

I'm feeling very agreeable today :D

Also it would be natural that if consent was posted inside the month but the ISA couldn't handle it in time, there wouldn't be any charge. If the owner / slave just wibbled around until the last minute, then expected everyone to work around them, I don't expect they'd get much sympathy.

Basically its much the same as the expectations of switch from free to slave and slave to free except concubine owners don't need the lecture on 'care and maintenance of your new pet'.

Would have to start with an Imperial Decree, being that it's an administrative change... but associated events would be a good idea - an open ISA event to allow the transition...


I'm thinking more of a storyline type event to introduce the concept of concubine to the empire. An internal demand or an external 'here's somthing new'. Something to spark a bureaucratic change. Lysistrata model would be internal, coming across it in southern exploration of the desert kingdoms would be external.

Again, just my thoughts towards the concept of Concubine. I see it as Sultans in the desert or even some Roman style of noble houses. Just yell if I'm seeing completely wrong.


I see a rather wider and somewhat different context but that's part of it. Slaves don't necessarily feel submissive towards *everyone* either, for example, and concubine would be limited if it was thought of as just a sex-pet with no other potential.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Tehya on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:13 pm

I love the story-line idea to introduce the concubine.

I have been reading about the collars, and/or markings with brackets for IRC.

I am not sure if wearing a collar would be necessary in rp, but here is a thought, couldn't most that have concubines have their own crest, and give them a bracelet (cuff) if you like that word better to wear with the emblem of their crest upon it.

I could see the concubine represent them better that way, and it would bring up some creative ideas for crests (simply written on your character sheet and described) and then described in your rp.

That isn't an answer to IRC markings on the name, but it might make for good descriptive rp.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Kerianna on Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:46 pm

Thria wrote:So your argument is based on "They already have them".... They're already slaves too, should they stay slaves?

You're inventing something -new-... USE something -new-...

Is it really that hard for the ISA/SS to arrange replacing the enchanted collar with an enchanted <blank>, for X amount of time until the new system is balanced out? (That, by the way, is a rhetorical question. No, it's not.)


No, my argument is based on "there's absolutely no good reason to disallow them from wearing them if they want, and I always support giving players more choice". If you want to make the official marking something else, fine...but don't disallow people from wearing their collars if they want to.

But regardless, word from on high has come down and said different style of tag works, so no point arguing this anymore, and thank you Stormbringer for not alienating people who would want them.

I also agree with pretty much everything Tawny said there, and as for the introduction, I would think an internal thing would work better, personally, than an external. It seems more likely that the society would have that sort of change if its own populace wanted it than if it just ran across something similar (although being that it's an empire, it could just be established by imperial decree either way). The specifics of that, however...I'm not so sure on.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Thria on Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:22 pm

I didnt say ban them from wearing them. Please quote any part of any post i made where i said they couldnt wear them. I said I dont believe them to be a valid official marking. I said I dont believe a free person should want to make themselves look like a slave (Note: Concubines are still free people, and fall under this category).
If you want your free person to make themselves look like a slave, you're certainly welcome to do so. I just dont understand it.

I'm trying to think about an appropriate example, and the only thing i can think of isnt modern, but it would be the equivilant of wearing a giant red A on your clothing in colonial times even though you're not an adulterer. Sure you could do it... but why would you want to?

Anyway. Events.... an internal one.... mmh... okay, but as you yourself have pointed out numerous times, SB, it's an Imperial Dictatorship. And StormBringer [the CHARACTER] hasn't (at least, to my recollection) really shown much inclination to listen to the people. So it... would really take an internal event on a level of activity that hasn't been seen before in this game (again, to my recollection) to warrant the Imperial Throne paying attention to it...at least, thats my opinion of the logic of the situation. We've never really seen eye-to-eye on logic before.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Kerianna on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:35 pm

Thria wrote:I didnt say ban them from wearing them. Please quote any part of any post i made where i said they couldnt wear them. I said I dont believe them to be a valid official marking. I said I dont believe a free person should want to make themselves look like a slave (Note: Concubines are still free people, and fall under this category).


I know, and I don't mean to be adversarial. I'm not arguing with you specifically, I'm arguing against the "concubines cannot wear slave collars" thing in the original post, but since SB has since said they'll be allowed to, I have no issue with that.

Thria wrote:Anyway. Events.... an internal one.... mmh... okay, but as you yourself have pointed out numerous times, SB, it's an Imperial Dictatorship. And StormBringer [the CHARACTER] hasn't (at least, to my recollection) really shown much inclination to listen to the people. So it... would really take an internal event on a level of activity that hasn't been seen before in this game (again, to my recollection) to warrant the Imperial Throne paying attention to it...at least, thats my opinion of the logic of the situation. We've never really seen eye-to-eye on logic before.


Maybe something from SB himself, or from the higher ups among the nobility? Someone among them might be worried about a slave revolt and think that splitting that group into two would help somehow (keep them from being a unified force, perhaps breed some resentment from slaves toward concubines as the "privileged pets" or the like). Not that there need actually be a revolt, just someone in a high enough spot thinks there could and wants to nip it in the bud.
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Re: Concubines

Postby Kaytoo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:10 am

Why concubines came about?

IMLTHO because some/all of the higher nobles including Stormbringer decided they had certain slaves they'd like to accord a certain amount of privilege and perhaps courtesy and even in rare cases power (screw with me I'll tell my lover/owner)....Yet to not imply all slaves had these rights, generated a new station. One slaves might aspire to yet were not until granted it.

Sometimes granting hope is as powerful as an iron fist.

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