Concubines

[Thria]

For the record, the RFC Standard for IRC Defines a Nickname to be consistant of:
Letters (a-zA-Z)
Numbers (0-9)
and Specials (-[]\`^{})
(Note that | is not valid, by this standard)
(Sidenote: The standard also defines that a nickname shall start with a Letter.)

Sorcery's IRCD also allows the Specials _|

Of the specials:
- is used by Merchant Slaves and Workers.
[] is unused
\ is unused
` is used as an accent by people's regular names.
^ is used as a distinguisher by people's regular names.
{} is the standard Slave tag.
_ is used by people to seperate first and last names since Space is an invalid character.
| is unused

Sarah|Moo|
Sarah\Moo\
Sarah[Moo]

[Tawny]

Actually gwyn thought that *was* the purpose of the free time given for the change, some slaves will stay slaves, but some players may not choose to stay within those more strict rules for one reason or another. Some current slaves will be more suited to concubinage, and that free time was to give them time to change rather than having to follow the new slave rules, or was gwyn wrong in that thought?

Ok What I meant was this... that people dont change to concubine simply to get less rules and fees yet still rp as a slave. Maybe that will help clear up what I cant seem to get right in my posting . Blames the pain pills. If they truely wish to rp as a concubine that is fine but if not then they shouldnt be changed just to get cheapers fees per month and such.

Again as for a tag I think a simply thing like.. Tawny^C^ . The C meaning concubine, would work. Unless of course there is need to show the owner of the concubine then it would be like Tawny^ISA^

[Kaytoo]

Actually gwyn thought that *was* the purpose of the free time given for the change, some slaves will stay slaves, but some players may not choose to stay within those more strict rules for one reason or another. Some current slaves will be more suited to concubinage, and that free time was to give them time to change rather than having to follow the new slave rules, or was gwyn wrong in that thought?

Ok What I meant was this... that people dont change to concubine simply to get less rules and fees yet still rp as a slave. Maybe that will help clear up what I cant seem to get right in my posting ........ If they truely wish to rp as a concubine that is fine but if not then they shouldnt be changed just to get cheapers fees per month and such.

ehhh....not seeking to challenge all the time, yet I believe if they are wanting less rules, even less monies (meaning the slave aspect/rules will deffinitely be tough if that's all it is about is cash), then they should change as they don't have the slave mindset.

What I don't want to see is a bunch of slaves still acting as though semi-free and supported/backed by their owners.....IMLTHO I don't care if concubines are acting like full blown scrape and bow slaves....Yet do care about slaves acting like concubines.

K2

[Stormbringer]

Thanks Thria.
Of the unused ones I tend to prefer a single \
I know there is support for the square brackets but they are in use in other ways elsewhere in M/s play on IRC and that seems to create an unnecessary confusion in new players who come from those areas.
I also assume that a concubine owner will mark his property with a specific identifier IC, not just brand a C on her forehead. So by the same token as slave collars on nicks carry the owner's mark, there is equal justification for the concubine to match that.

My suggestion would be kaytoo\SB

When working kaytoo\SB-REB

etc

I'm not sure why the other confusion persists. In a private relationship between owner and concubine there is no reason why they should not play it exactly the same as in a private relationship between owner and slave. There is no reason why, in a private relationship, it should not be played differently.

I seem to keep saying the same thing over and over. I don't care if the concubine gets treated as a pain slut / cum slut in private by her owner. I don't care if the slave dresses their owner as a pony in private and rides him around the room slashing his ass with a crop and crying 'hi ho silver awaaaaay'. I don't care. They can do what they want between themselves.

What I DO care about is how society views the actions of slave, concubine and owner in public and what restrictions and penalties each of them face.

[Takao]

I rather like the single / myself. In fact I like the entire idea as SB presents it.

[Sakkara]

Ive been thinking about this, and I kinda have a problem, not witht he role, but with the name, Concubine, to my understanding was a highly trained, highly prized, and very expensive pleasure slave, not your run of the mill, pick them up at the docks or local tavern slave, but one that went through a lot of training.

To my mind, concubine should be the role that those tutundilwhateverthehelltheyarecalled slaves occupy.

Perhaps a more suitable name for the role on discussion would be courtesan?

[Thria]

Concubine –noun
1.
a woman who cohabits with a man to whom she is not legally married, esp. one regarded as socially or sexually subservient; mistress.
2.
(among polygamous peoples) a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank.
3.
(esp. formerly in Muslim societies) a woman residing in a harem and kept, as by a sultan, for sexual purposes.

Courtesan –noun
a prostitute or paramour, esp. one associating with noblemen or men of wealth.


(Definitions courtesy of dictionary.reference.com)

Personally, I think the more appropriate term is Concubine.

[Stormbringer]

I seem to be agreeing with Thria a lot recently. Feels weird...

A courtesan is basically a high-end whore.

A Tu`turadil is a slave who exhibits the ideal traits of a slave, which a concubine would generally not.

What is described here is, to my mind, a cross between 1001 Nights concubine and present day lifestyle-slave, with a few unique features. Concubine isn't an ideal label but what we have shares enough traits to not be completely misleading.

[Thria]

I'm sure we'll be back at each other's throats soon enough, SB. You know me and opinions. Need Ray smacking me over the head sometimes.

To me it's sort of walking the line between 'submissive' and 'slave', which is a more-than-fine line, especially in the minds of those that arnt familiar with the differences. It's a concept that almost defies label, but requires one (yeah, i'm talking myself in circles now. Go me.)

Here's how it falls in my mind. SB can smack it around if he wants.

Tu'Turandil are the epitome of -slaves-, the ideal that willing slaves aim to achieve. They instruct and guide other slaves when called upon or sought out, and retain their status and high honor on condition of their continued exemplary behavior.

Slaves fall in many forms. (I've... covered my views on this in the blog, and wont repeat it), but the defining characteristics are that they are -considered- to have a confined free will, are not people, and are actively owned by a person or group (Group defined to be a shop or other establishment recognized within the Empire. I'm not advocating globular ownership.)

<FillInLabelHere> are free persons who have decided to declare openly their submission to their partner (owner is an inaccurate term here, imho). They relinquish the right to decide to end said declaration, but otherwise retain their rights as a free person, including accountability.

Bonded are free persons who have decided to declare openly their commitment to their partner in an equal relationship. Both partners are and remain free persons with all rights thereto.

[Stormbringer]

No, still pretty much in agreement. Slaves can be willing or unwilling of course. I use the term owner for the other since once they have given themselves to that person the concubine is effectively owned by them. How that gets played out is down to individual but in practice he can use them as property if he wishes to do so.

[Joshua_Jericho]

Something that's been quietly nagging at me since I saw this idea - it rather reminds me of the Roman system of Patron/Client. Nobles or other high-status individuals serving as Patron to, usually, various clients, as a method of building allegiance, or simply a network of subordinate friends.

Off the top of my head, the Clients were usually expected to swear loyalty to their Patrons, and the Patrons.. fed their Clients? Agreed to provide protection if needed, political or otherwise? Something along those lines. Obviously TLI's version has some differences, but perhaps that's a useful mould.

Certainly, the terminology of Patron and Client gets around some of the implications of Concubine, which seem to be causing a few issues. Maybe that would be more useful..?

JJ

[Kaytoo]

Personally I'm thinking a single thing might help clear up both concubine and slave issues.

We all come here with our preconceived notions of this or that, really everything. Part of what makes those opinions even stronger is they're often supported by a name we may know from somewhere else. Be it Goblin, Catgirl, Centaur, Knight, berzerker, drow, orc.....the list goes on. Granted they help out in trying to imply a very general theme, yet then we put our own very strict conditions on them, and the confusion starts.

IOW.....If I hear the word "concubine", instantly knowing it I'll put my own spin on what I think it is, and therefor what it should all be about. Again it helps in explaining, yet in that we all have our own take on it right or wrong it simply generates debate. In contrast if I hear the word "Rasslefrumpalots", I have no idea what that means...I'm forced to read what is generated here on it to understand it, and therefor mine and everyone elses opinions will be very similar EVEN if it boils down to a r/l concept and name I know otherwise.

To that end.....Though we can't go back (though should now) and change "Goblin, Catgirl, Centaur, Knight, etc..." to something that would accomplish that for those already here......We can most certainly for concubines, slaves, and anything new generated. It may seem like "a rose by any other name....", yet I'll lay dollars to doughnuts it would pan out greatly to everyones advantage. May not help with older players, yet would hopefully with the new.....and more so force them to read what it means rather then guess.

It's our world, we can call them what we want and then they're ours the debate as to what they are over in a single word.

K2

[Stormbringer]

Freed slaves in Rome commonly became clients, though that usage as a name here would perhaps be even more confusing. Even in a sexual connotation it brings to mind the customers of courtesans.

Personally I still believe that in most relationships the element of kept woman for sex who is neither wife nor slave will tend to be a common way to play concubine so it remains valid.

[Thria]

The problem with giving them a name with no RL connotation, K2, is exactly that - the word has no meaning. You can call them "Trifurglesplat", but if the effect is 'slave'... guess what people are going to call it 99% of the time.

People like terms that have meaning in their own language. Trick is finding the right one.

[magnus adder]

i see a potential problem with \, some irc clients (mostly java base) use this in action scripts as such it removed form there standered alphabet. so there is a good chance that if some one is using a web-based server or (one programed in java) \ will not be available for their tags.