Slavery Revision

Questions and suggestions relating to the playing of individual characters rather than the game world

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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Infernis on Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:05 pm

Stormbringer wrote:My own thought is that the ISA shouldn't have to deal with the basic stuff, a society such as this would tend to be self-policing and there isn't a lot of support groups for those too weak to stand up for themselves.

So the two aspects are 1) define social conventions towards slavery as a roleplaying guideline with fairly blanket OOC consent to consequences rather than ISA intervention. And 2) define areas where slave behavior warrants ISA involvement, along with appropriate IC punishments

Social conventions, it would appear to me, is a wider topic that needs addressing since too few actually play as though their characters exist in this society. It's something that has been highlighted in different places but not as a coherent and all encompassing playbook.

ISA shouldn't have to make too many value judgements. That was a big part of my objective here - getting it all put into a simple list along the lines of slave does X, ISA does Y.

Aside from that I wanted to give those most involved in serious M/s play an opportunity to improve their playing environment in a situation where the game had to make less compromises towards those who had softer views of slave relations.



I've already offered my opinion, such as it is, on the subject of slave expectations. Like always, I prefer a KISS approach. Keep it simple. Simple deference, respect, courtesy, a quiet nature. This is what Belariathian society would expect of slaves and reprimands would come to those who defy these expectations. Now, reprimands should fit the sin, so beatings should not be given to someone simply for neglecting a 'sir' or 'maam', but would be appropriate for a slave who openly mouths off to a free person.

The ISA? Let them deal with real crimes. Theft, murder, assault, you could even lay 'rape' in there if you want to get crazy. But, that last one is up for debate. : )

Again, I like to keep it simple.


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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Tawny on Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:52 pm

Ok let me see if I can put down how I see some of this. Just my opinion and nothing more.

The ISA is NOT the school yard teacher that handles all the little complaints about a slaves behavior. If a slave verbally insults you, or doesnt drop thier eyes when you walk by, Or just simply refuses to give up thier seat for you... or in other words is lacking in the social graces of being a slave...take it up with their owner. When a slave is registered and the ISA worker tell the new owner that THEY are responsible for their slaves behavior at all times, they arent just meaning for the really bad stuff. They mean period, and in all ways.

What the ISA is there for is.... To handle a slave that attacks..(Starts a fight with) a free person with hand or weapon or spell. A slave that decided being a thief is a good idea, A slave that destroys property or a runaway slave. A slave that kills, rapes or proves to be a menace to society.
The ISA is also there to help train a slave and or owner. They are there as much for the slave as they are for the free people and owners.
Basically The way I see it is this. The ISA is with a slave like the LAW would be with a child IRL. They dont get involved with the small stuff but are there for a major stuff. They offer guidence, training and education to try and prevent the major stuff from happening, But if it does, then just like the LAW with a child, the ISA will step in and reprimand punish and maybe even temporarily remove the Slave for retraining. As well as make the owner go thru some training as well and maybe pay a fine. If the slave become a repeat Offender then the ISA will be delievering harsher punishments to the slave, higher fines to the owner and if the offenses are bad enough, the owner may well lose the slave altogether.

This is basicly how I view the ISA involvment with slaves and owners and misbehaving
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Stormbringer on Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:26 pm

Well as gwynn says we're all pretty much singing off the same hymn sheet here and the opportunity exists for anyone who wants to change the words. I'm still on reduced hours while I get better so just leave it to run a bit longer.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Kaytoo on Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:29 pm

Kaytoo wrote:Seemed rather clear to me;

1. Define the Belaraith mindset on slavery (how does the IC world view it)
2. Define through examples suggested interactions between slaves and their owners and free peoples.
3. Establish acceptable forms of enforcement that kept as much as possible IC.
4. Establish enforcable laws for slaves, free peoples and owners when interactions exceeded acceptable IC societal limits (ex. slave beating a free person half to death for no reason).

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Okay, lets put this in OOC terms in that as in IC it was obviously not clear.

1. Define the Belaraith mindset on slavery (how does the IC world view it)
The reason slavery has ranged from crushing oppressive owners and others to the slave being the master is that slavery has been alowed to be a thing of "however anyone wants it to be, and it infringes on players rights to set guidelines"........Well that opinion is just nonsense.....In every game you have rules and guidelines. In every culture you have rules and guidelines. In every aspect of anything be it government, religion, society in general, nature, science, math...You have rules and guidelines. SO how is it here it is simply "whatevaaaa" on this one issue?

By establishing a global mindset, you establish a very basic and general character type just like ranger, fire mage, warrior......Yet not just for slaves yet for all. Rape is a natural part of TLI, it has been made very clear. So how is it so unreasonable to state "here is a global mindset on slavery" when there is one on rape? However, if it is never briefly defined then you insure it will be a vast range like we have had.

Again....IC players will either be forced/captured slaves so no doubt wanting to be free YET also trying to survive. Or more then likely born/raised into it so knowing no other way (and that has NOTHING to do with sex it simply implying a more accepting mindset).

2. Define through examples [u]suggested interactions between slaves and their owners and free peoples.[/u]
This is not saying anyone "must be this way or that"....It is simply giving the player some suggested examples to get a better understanding by. It reinforces the above mindset with clear examples of how one might get by with ALL races and cultures......Here again, the player is faced with vast possibilities due to the nature of the game making it very confusing. Unlike r/l where race, culture, poverty level, situation, etc. and so on might determine who has the greatest potential to be a slave (and therefor establishing mindsets and conditions through that)....Here anyone can be a slave. From rich to poor, numerous races and countless backgrounds....yet how resonable is it to think a slave will be strutting about acting and speaking as though the queen of England?

To that end you say "okay, here are how all the races and cultures view slavery tossed into a pot, what they expect of their own....now what of all that will help slaves and their owners get along with other free peoples best"

They're suggestions, not must do's, and given to all as free peoples must recognize it is not just slaves that must have a mindset, yet also they in that this has been a part of their IC life forever (slaves being about).

3. Establish acceptable forms/means of enforcement that kept as much as possible IC.
Frankly we being a game and community already have numerous controls already in place. We have OPs (nobles), we have official groups (ISA, IG, etc.), and we have a community with a roughly focussed mindset. However to date it has worked as though there is no structure regarding slaves........A slave or free does this, the other responds like that, the slave screams "you can't do that I'm owned so have a shield", player goes after slave owner, slave owner says they can't as it's the slaves fault, back and forth till it either dies out or some OP gets dragged into it....Ridiculous and in most cases it ending up the bottom class character got the upper hand.

Further....The ISA IF they can be tracked down may not have the authority to do anything be it IC or OOC the only real control OPs getting to hear the gripes and whines flooding OOC.

So, the OPs/nobles have the power anyway, acknowledge that. Same with the ISA, same with the IG. Add to that a few others having IC ruling authority, and then cap it off with players needing to IC sort it out then and there.....The above aspects however must be in place and the shield lifted (mindsets and examples). Then players will have a better grasp how to react, other authorities in place to address it immediately, and finally the OPs as IC nobles able to step in when it's going no where........and all of it IC, quick in that its available, and lets the play flow.

4. Establish enforcable laws for slaves, free peoples and owners when interactions exceeded acceptable IC societal limits (ex. slave beating a free person half to death for no reason).
Finally....it is absolutly unreasonable to think there are no commonly accepted IC laws (or more mindsets of station/class) that rule over extreme situations. For most things here it boils down to the nobles/OPs saying what goes and is reasonable (just like r/l feudal times) and past that the lowly serfs sort it out......Okay? That's all good and fine, yet WHAT ARE the commonly accepted limits placed on a very potentially dangerous threat roaming about (warrior made slave, angry, bitter, skilled....go figure)?

You MUST establish what the limits are of a society. Doesn't matter if it is a hard written law to even just common knowledge...Yet somewhere you must say OOC what it is so the player base has an idea of what is expected.

Frankly I'm of the opinion that for the most part slaves are as vulnerable to the IC consequences of those free (stab me I stab you)...Yet even more so considered an oppressed group, are even more at risk (where in if Bob-free yells at me I yell back....Yet Mary-slave yells at me I slap her)........However, there needs to be what are commonly accepted laws IC written or not that all understand if you do this you risk this consequence.

Whatevaaaaa *shrug* the player wants is what made this long debated and needed discussion happen in the first place.......Time to define it.

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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Infernis on Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 pm

I'm afraid I can't see slaves, ICly, as an oppressed group.

Certainly, some will be enslaved unwillingly, but I've always viewed the IC institution of slavery 'within the Empire' as resembling that of ancient Rome. Sure, it sucked to be a slave in Rome, especially if you were used to freedom, but it was much much worse outside the Roman Empire, for both slaves and free alike.

That is how I view slavery within the game world.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Kaytoo on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:04 pm

Unfortunately though the gist I gather from most of the posts is "do nothing" in that what is suggested is the current status quo. So I'm thinking I must of missed something in that if leaving it as is, is the point, then why even discuss it?

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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:48 pm

Stormbringer wrote:Well as gwynn says we're all pretty much singing off the same hymn sheet here and the opportunity exists for anyone who wants to change the words.


See, and gwyn was trying to avoid reverting to religion in her allegory, and so went to the Trekkien one instead. but then, as Mel Brooks once said "It's good to be the King!" (or emperor as the case may be)

Kaytoo wrote:Unfortunately though the gist I gather from most of the posts is "do nothing" in that what is suggested is the current status quo. So I'm thinking I must of missed something in that if leaving it as is, is the point, then why even discuss it?


It's not actually do nothing Miss Kaytoo, it's that those of U/us responding here, in the majority are pretty much behind and already rping the same world view of Belariath so far as slavery goes. The problem lies in that those who are not are not putting in their two cents, and thus are soon going to be missing their opportunity to do so, and then the bitching will start when things are changed.

As for ic laws, gwyn just cannot think of an additional *law* not social mindset, but *law* other than the ones already there that would be worth ISA/OP, whatever intervention. gwyn does not think Nobles should be involved with enforcing slave behavior, as icly Nobles play favorites, trade favors, can be blackmailed, have varied views on what slave behavior is acceptable etc, the ISA is a fair ic forum, and OPs are a fair ooc forum to step in when needed. gwyn isn't so sure about the set punishments for set behaviors, as sometimes there are extenuating circumstances whatever, and definitely think 'death for any attack' as was suggested is just... too harsh, and doesn't actually serve to *teach* anything, deter the behavior, nor to increase rp in any way. Punishments should fit the crime and character as well as be used to instruct as well as be punitive in gwyn's opinion, but again, that's just her. Punishment for a duessa vs. a nymph char who is 'soft skinned' would require two different touches, for example. You flog a duessa, that's not much of a discouragement, wheras punishing a nymph who takes no pleasure from pain as one would a duessa may only traumatize both character (and potentially the player, depending), or kill the character even if it wasn't 'designed' to.

IC example: if gwyneth ever had to be punished officially by the ISA, she'd likely do more *actual* punishment to herself psychologically then any flogging could do, because that's just how she is, and thus, she wouldn't get pleasure from the flogging (as she would normally). However, keeping gwyneth in the slave kennels or in chains could do serious psychological damage to her icly due to things in her past, which wouldn't be beneficial as a *punishment*. And, from an ooc standpoint, any punishment using a belt, or anything tight around the neck *i* oocly would be most uncomfortable with, and likely would not give ooc consent for. knowing these things, Miss Tawny could design the appropriate punishment for gwyneth without it turning into psychological torture rather than punishment. a 'one size fits all' punishment doesn't work well with the range of characters and backgrounds in this setting and rp.

Social mindset we seem to agree on the basics of what *should* be acceptable as a 'norm' of behavior. And you want to stick with the basics, not specifics in gwyn's opinion to encourage rp rather than stifle it. the problem isn't that those of us discussing it don't agree, it's that, again, those who don't agree or would do things differently aren't discussing it. gwyn thinks they're mostly listening and waiting to see what changes will affect them rather then trying to contribute to the conversation.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Kaytoo on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:38 pm

Well a couple of points....

Directly to Infernis....I'm no student of Roman history yet would not hesitate in saying that I find it very doubtful that other then not being officially free there would be little difference between slave and free commoner.....Frankly and there are numerous accounts of such (though extreme cases were actually prosecuted dependant upon the current opinions of the powers at be). Killing of slaves, beatings to debilitating and crippling degrees, torture, rape at will you name it "just-a-cuz" was probably more the norm or at least nothing worth worrying about another free person doing. Slaves were considered less then human just as much as anywhere else. An expendable commodity that was just as easily replaced......The only aspect except for a very rare few long time loyal slaves that would of mattered is they would be expensive so it a money issue.

Oh to be sure, there are accounts of excessive cruelty which brought down the wrath of the leadership upon even those very high (one accounting I recall of a slave tortured/killed for breaking a glass, in turn the owner punished...Lampreys were involved).....Yet such cases are rare and why they're noted, yet the norm was much more uncaring oppressive and cruel to crushing degrees.

Do we want that here?...Well no....Yet slavery should be no utopia.

Gwyneth....You use a specific example I've heard all my time here.....That being roughly that guidelines or restrictions stifles r/p. I've always disagreed with that, as no matter the restrictions in that creativity to work within them and around them is the key if anything encourages r/p creativity. Simply wide open have at it attitudes is why we have slaves treating even the most powerful and free as doormats and more so why their owners support it (in if they don't allow it then the slave doesn't want to slave).

It's absurd how slavery is frankly played by some.....and if you asked most doing such "would you have been a slave "if"?"....They'd say no way. That's really the point, some characters and even some players should NOT be slaves, yet as long as it is wide open it will simply be SSDD.

If a few minimal restrictions establishing both slave and free mindsets harms an individuals r/p, then frankly they're not using their creativity anywho....Heck, Kaytoo is a "victim character"....Yet through creative within a very regimented and established set of guidelines followed very closely r/p, though she seems to have no end of self generated problems and is often the victim seems to often come out on top and few here have so many rules and restrictions set up for their characters as I do her. Yet I'm nothing special.....anyone here can do as well if not better then I.

In fact if anything, IMLTHO guidelines and restrictions encourages creative r/p exactly the opposite of what most claim. More so they grant a foundation to build upon, and make very clear reasonable options.

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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby gwyneth{StWi} on Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:27 pm

if you make social rules so strict that slaves never say anything never dare move or do *anything* without some command from a free, then you've stifled rp. gwyn saw a lot of channels die specifically because of that, there was no room for the personal character growth of the slave chars, there was no *reason* for the characters even to go ic unless there was specific rp lined up. that is stifling rp.

Now social norms requiring slaves to be respectful, voice opinions respectfully, etc.. is fine, if you get to "no speaking without being spoken to" and no approaching the Free without an invitation, you're shutting down rp. period. gwyneth has begun rp with lots of new players and characters in the Inn by sitting down and starting a conversation, you're taking that option away. and a lot of times, the players have no idea what to do with someone sitting silently beside them doing anything and just ignore it in those cases. then you're not only stifling the slave's rp, you're causing more player turn over with new players because they never get any rp.

gwyn doesn't remember if You were the one who suggested that, or if it was someone else, but that's an example of a social rule that can stifle rp.. and in this girl's experience *will* stifle rp. slaves are not chairs, or trunks or animals, they are slaves, possessions but still people with thoughts and a need for social interaction. sometimes, their minds, the things they notice and the ideas they have are their most valuable asset. if you want Your slaves gagged, then gag them, but don't gag everyone Else's. and don't make it useless even to go ic without pre-planned rp. some of us like a bit of spontaneity in our game.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Kaytoo on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:22 am

Who said anything about dictating what slaves could say or do?

Frankly, just as it was added into the "suggestions"....I suggest to all slave and free alike "if you want to avoid the potential for conflict do not approach any other". That's life...not some law of the land.

What laws need to be made are those for not only slave yet also free.....However the MOST important aspect IMO is writing such laws to eliminate the shield from slaves most think they have, yet in kind not make them fodder. That's directly contrary to making restrictive rules you all are so desperately fighting against......Yet fact of the matter is we've never even gotten to that point. Instead just a lot of yelping about not being "restricted".

However....A mindset for the game as to slavery needs to be developed. I'm waiting to see where that is happening, as my own efforts in that regard have stopped. Never the less.....this topic has become a round robin going no where. Just don't back the slave that just got flattened by a free person......as with no guidelines, anything goes, for both slave and free alike :wink: and that free aspect a dangerous prospect.

Anywho...Enjoy the topic, I'll spend no more time on it.

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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Tawny on Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:37 am

Wow. I didnt read here till tonight but wow. As far as Whining complaining and bitching in OOC about any rules changes....well that aint nothing new. I dont care how much we debate, hash over, agree or disagree here, Its a givin, this will happen in OOC.

As for ic laws, gwyn just cannot think of an additional *law* not social mindset, but *law* other than the ones already there that would be worth ISA/OP, whatever intervention. gwyn does not think Nobles should be involved with enforcing slave behavior, as icly Nobles play favorites, trade favors, can be blackmailed, have varied views on what slave behavior is acceptable etc, the ISA is a fair ic forum, and OPs are a fair ooc forum to step in when needed. gwyn isn't so sure about the set punishments for set behaviors, as sometimes there are extenuating circumstances whatever, and definitely think 'death for any attack' as was suggested is just... too harsh, and doesn't actually serve to *teach* anything, deter the behavior, nor to increase rp in any way. Punishments should fit the crime and character as well as be used to instruct as well as be punitive in gwyn's opinion, but again, that's just her. Punishment for a duessa vs. a nymph char who is 'soft skinned' would require two different touches, for example. You flog a duessa, that's not much of a discouragement, wheras punishing a nymph who takes no pleasure from pain as one would a duessa may only traumatize both character (and potentially the player, depending), or kill the character even if it wasn't 'designed' to.


All I can say to this is.....You took the words right out of my mouth. I strongly have a problem with the Nobels being in on punishing anyones slave but their own.... They are not the one paying for the slave, They are not the one paying the monthly fee and they have no business involved with the slaves in that manner. I have a Char that is a slave owner and I know as a player of a slave owner my char would be way pissed with anyone but the IG, or the ISA Were to hand out punishement to my slave. Again this seems to mirror slave enforcers and that didnt work well at all and should not be revisited IMO. I dont see the need for so many being involved in this. Any complaint that has been issued to the ISA has been handled within a very reasonable amount of time. If you start adding so many able to deal with slaves your going to end up with a mess. Let the IG and the ISA deal with the slavery issues as they always have.

gwyn isn't so sure about the set punishments for set behaviors, as sometimes there are extenuating circumstances whatever, and definitely think 'death for any attack' as was suggested is just... too harsh, and doesn't actually serve to *teach* anything, deter the behavior, nor to increase rp in any way. Punishments should fit the crime and character as well as be used to instruct as well as be punitive in gwyn's opinion, but again, that's just her


Again I have to agree with Gwyn. And this death for punishment is just way over board and brings back really bad memories that we dont want to think about again. You can set guidelines but you can not blanket the punishments. Each ""crime "" will need to looked at and handled according to what happened in each case.

I will write more when I am not so tired.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Stormbringer on Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:08 am

Since when was Trekkie NOT a religion? ;)

And why this is here? Just to give people a chance. It may be there's a need to change, it may just be that the existing precepts of slavery need defining and enforcing more than they have been in the past. I'm pretty much in 'whatever' mode on that one but at the end of it no one here at TLI will be able to say the way they've been roleplaying for the past 53 years has been negated overnight without them even having the chance to put in their opinions.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Thria on Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:31 am

Trekkie is a religion. Klingon is a language. And no, I dont do either of them.

The problem is, as it always is, the OOC mindset of the playerbase. Which is something you just simply cant regulate. Ever.

It's unfortunate, but true.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Tawny on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:37 pm

SLAVE CONDUCT

The following is purposed codes of conduct for a slave. A slave should follow these codes of conduct to the letter as it means that the slave is made more pleasing to their Owner, which in turn brings to themself that pleasure in return. It should also be noted that if a slave breaks these codes of conduct they can expect the consequences for suchs actions to be handled by their owner and the person they have angered by doing so. The ISA will not become involved in such menial Problems.


1. The slave will speak in a respectful manner. This includes the use of Master or Mistress for their owner, and possibly others at the discretion of their Owner. When in the company of free people a slave will use a respectful title until told to do otherwise. This includes the words Lord, Lady, Ma’am, Miss, Missus, and Sir.


2. The slave will always keep thier appearance fitting within the rules of their owner. The slave will follow any guidelines in appearance no matter how strict for they strive to be pleasing in their Owner’s eyes.


3. The slave will in no way be disrespectful in their behavior. While it is understood that a slave may have differing opinions than their owner there is always a time and a place for polite disagreement. When expressing a differing opinion or belief a well trained slave will always speak with respect, and listen to the opposing point of view with thought and an open mind. This type of disagreement does not include yelling, and will only be discussed at the Owner’s permission. If a discussion is deemed closed by the Owner the slave will immediately halt his or her argument.


4. A slave will not engage in acts of senseless violence. A slave will never provoke an attack, nor initiate one. However, the bond between Owner and slave is so deep that a slave would be likely to do anything for their Owner to save them. It is common that Owners do not permit their slaves to act in their defense, as they are the protectors rather than the slave, however should an Owner be unconscious and near death it is possible that a slave would attempt to save their owner by whatever means possible. However, there would be no seeking of revenge or retaliation afterwards.


5. A slave will not disobey a direct order from their Owner. This includes all matters, be they sexual, domestic, or otherwise, no matter how frightening the task the slave will obey and do his or her best to appear pleasant in the completion of such.


6. A slave will be honest at all times. The only time a slave may possibly lie would be to protect their Owner, but that would only be in the most desperate of situations. When asked information that is too personal of a slave he or she would rather state that they would prefer not to answer than to speak in a lie.


7. As all slaves are people they are bound to make mistakes at times. A slave will accept punishment with grace and poise. They will not argue their punishment and they will not beg to have it rescinded. Instead a slave will do as required for their punishment and will do so with complete obedience and respect for their Owner.
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Re: Slavery Revision

Postby Isla on Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:35 pm

I've stayed quiet because really I see no point in arguing over things that have already been in play for a long time here. I was waiting to read what Tawny would have as the ISA's position on slave behavior and I must say "Bravo". I see a very clear line drawn without stifling play style, very well done at least, from my perspective.
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