Don't think I have ever posted here but...

[Belson]

Something truly needs to be done to help physical classes along. All of the classes got an update a few years back and that is awesome but something needs to be done to make them a class that might be able to win a fight against a magic using class.

I know there has been a ton of work put into development and I am not saying I am ungrateful but when I feel like my character could not compete against any of the magical classes there is something wrong. I have talked to several other long standing physical characters and all of them have felt the same. Can we get something to make being a physical class worth it in the long run? I play this game for fun... and getting rofl stomped in dice combat everytime by magic users isn't fun and they could do it several levels under where Belson is.

I know that Dev only has so much time and I am pretty sure there are a lot of other issues holding this back but is there anything as players we can do to help this along? Just let me know how I can help make this part of the game as fleshed out and awesome as the other parts.

[cheshires]

I concur, the physical advanced classes look very lacking. The problem is advanced casters have all these level gated powerful spells which they can dump plenty of mehrial in to get high slot count/strong spells. The weapons/items available to physical classes that are not available to the mage classes do not even begin to make up for this difference. I know it's an isolated incident, but I remember the one dice fight I insisted on with someone of relatively equal level, I was literally one shot with the stamina drain spell because they had enough slots in it. The base stats on weapons/armors not available to casters just don't make the difference in power/utility up whatsoever. Casters essentially get access to all the stats that melee do, plus the spells as far as I can tell. I'm not an expert on this games rules, but it certainly does feel unfair (to the point I've seen people retcon their character to get magic).

And yeah, there is definitely a big gap in the advanced classes for physical types. I really think there should be an advanced class available for Rangers/Thieves that's purely physical. Ranger/Thief options that I know of are Hierophant, Mist Raider, Seductress, Earth Mage, and Necromancer? Four of these are magical and thieves don't even have a base spell sphere and neither do Ranger? So confusing. Mist Raider seems like Ranger 2.0 with a baked in lurk spell - this class just seems superfluous - they need to be made different from each other in meaningful ways other than verbiage. I think there should be an advanced class for thief - for example "Smuggler" or "Crime Lord", and that Mist Raider needs to be touched up to make it more different than just Lurk+Stats.



Ways to fix this that I can think of
A. Make physical class specific items base stats more valuable - pretty straight forward but might have issues balancing for multi-classsers.
B. Game System such as Feats, Weapon Skills, whichever you would want to call it - lot of games have these of different variety - basically a melee 'spell' that adds effects/conditions/modifiers to attack/defense. Examples - Cleave (hit multiple targets with one blade), Blind fighting ( as name suggests), Weapon Throw (you get the idea, there's probably tons of sources to draw from for things like this with varying mechanics and pros/cons)
C. Improve advanced class passives to have some sort of power scaling beyond normal equipment/enchantments.


TLDR : Mages get lots of utility, stats, and power out of their spell kit. Other advanced classes have low impact passives that don't keep up. Mist Raider needs to be an actual advanced class instead of a lurk passive. Thief class needs an advanced class that is - non-magic.

[cheshires]

Secondary Rant/Rave - The website layout/design and navigation is so horribly out dated it's very hard for players to find consolidated information about almost anything on the site. The locations/shops/magic/classes sections are especially scattered and not arranged out in a manner which is obvious for new comers. A lot of information is hidden in the forums and some if it just seems like hearsay after a while!

The XP system, whatever it's details are, are terrible. If you have a good XP system you would be able to share the rules and details of it with everyone without fear of it being gamed/manipulated. Players have no idea when/how close they would to be levelling. It's extremely off putting for new players. We don't know where we stand or how long it might take to level.

To be bluntly honest, I've only ever noticed my character level significantly from x-rated scenes in public settings. It definitely makes it feel like the only way to level up in this place is to sleep to the top, rather than just roleplay And it's highly frustrating because one can't realistically set goals for their character since the xp process is obfuscated.

And btw, I appreciate all the hard work that's gone into TLI and have a lot of fun here.

[L`aquera]

Best place for this is not Rants an Raves, we only look in here when we are nudged.

[Kooky]

If you think something needs to be done to bring physical classes along, what would you suggest? New class-restricted items? Racial items? Magic-damage absorption items? What about nullification spells or enchantments able to be used by non-magic users?

What do you think would help even the playing field? If you come up with ideas and put them on the MB in the suggestions area, they get looked at and discussed eventually. It takes time. But it does get done. And this way everyone has a chance to view them and better flesh them out before they get refined by Dev.

One strategy that works when facing a magic-user, is to force them to use their stam all the faster. There are many ways to exploit this, but maybe it can be built upon as well. When it comes to defending against physical attacks, most magic users are limited in armor and cannot last long against a well armed physical combatant if there's not a level difference. At least that is my own experience, with similar leveled interactions.

[crow]

One strategy that works when facing a magic-user, is to force them to use their stam all the faster. There are many ways to exploit this, but maybe it can be built upon as well. When it comes to defending against physical attacks, most magic users are limited in armor and cannot last long against a well armed physical combatant if there's not a level difference. At least that is my own experience, with similar leveled interactions.

Could you elaborate on this for a moment? I cannot think of anything that a physical class can do differently that would force a magic-user to expand additional stamina. The only 'strategy' as melee class has is to keep attacking, with the exact same attack, over and over. But you appear to be suggesting there is an alternative strategy?

It is possible that I am misunderstanding you through. Since the rest of the paragraph reads as a concept of how things are generally used in fiction, rather than how they are in Belariath.

[Kooky]

Well for one, if you have the advantage in the ability to land hits, you can eat through enchanted defense and even damage barriers quickly, causing the magic user to not only keep rolling their defense but also to re-cast spells to try and protect themselves, which uses up their turns for both evades and attacks. Eventually round after round, it wears of the player and character alike and the evade is lost to a defense roll, and the character goes unconscious. I have seen this happen many times, and have targeted others into this corner as well as had it happen to me likewise.

Depending on level, a low-level magic user cannot get off many spells without constant evading, and each physical defense costs two stamina, which if the physical attacker has more of, can easily dwindle down the magic user. There are of course ways around this and spell costs such as with Focus enchants.

In other cases, there -are- spells for magic users vs magic users that cause spells and actions to cost more stamina.

And Apothecary poisons. Using those, like Casters Muzzle, can also have a huge effect. Especially in roleplay beyond just dicing mechanics.

[crow]

Well for one, if you have the advantage in the ability to land hits, you can eat through enchanted defense and even damage barriers quickly, causing the magic user to not only keep rolling their defense but also to re-cast spells to try and protect themselves, which uses up their turns for both evades and attacks. Eventually round after round, it wears of the player and character alike and the evade is lost to a defense roll, and the character goes unconscious. I have seen this happen many times, and have targeted others into this corner as well as had it happen to me likewise.

Alright, I think I understand the train of thought you are on. Though I respectfully disagree this is a realistic scenario. I'm noticing the same feeling of 'how it generally works in fantasy' vs 'how it works in belariath'. These are not things that should happen unless the character in question was never meant for combat in the first place. I will of course grant that many people don't care about (or understand) diced combat, and will thus stat themselves extremely poorly as a result (Who can blame them? They are just here for the rp), but in terms of a balance discussion this seems like a crooky measure to use. ^.~

Basically, I feel as though the tactic you are referring to is not so much a tactic that the Warrior can choose to apply, but one that 'emerges' through no imput of the warrior's own, if the mage plays poorly.

Depending on level, a low-level magic user cannot get off many spells without constant evading, and each physical defense costs two stamina, which if the physical attacker has more of, can easily dwindle down the magic user. There are of course ways around this and spell costs such as with Focus enchants.

If the physical attacker has more stamina than the magic user, something went wrong a long time ago as this should never be the case unless the physical attacker seriously overstacked on stam for some strange reason. Which relates back to my previous assertion, that most characters were not statted with combat as a consideration. In the worst case scenario, a mage can cast single slot spells for a mere 2 stamina, same as the warrior.

[Eucep]

The easiest combat solution is a combat school.

Literally 'common' spells only for physical classes. With their rolls being dependant on strength in stead of intelligence.

Some idea's:
Force slash: Slash that removes x magic defence for 1 round following the force slash.
Sundering warcry: Doubles opponent stamina consumption for abilities for x rounds.
Cleave: Up to one aditional foe within 10 feet per 3 ranks gets hit.
Shockwave Assault: Advanced, allows a melee weapon to be used on ranged opponents.

[Balard]

I Like that idea Eucep, Currently Warlord is being worked on which was decided by everyone which i can't wait to see what gets changed/added. Physical classes are quite cheap to get up there to where you need it to be unlike Mages where you got to buy all the slots unless gained through levels and then their is the money to focus them and even then some spells don't work to their full advantage due to certain classes/races/Armor Pieces.

[crow]

I Like that idea Eucep, Currently Warlord is being worked on which was decided by everyone which i can't wait to see what gets changed/added.

Me neither. I am very curious to see what will come of it. In the spirit of getting some idea of what might happen, I tried to look up previous class changes. But, I am having a hard time finding examples. That is, outside of the massive balance change that happened some time ago, and the streamlining feats and faults into 2 per class. Come to think of it, that may be what is most likely to change for the Warlord.

I have to wonder the dev actually changed a single class like this before? (Obviously they would look at classes one at a time in preparation for the previously mentioned massive changes, but that's not what I mean.) The only thing that really came to mind were the removal of assassins and berserkers. Other than that, it seems to happen all at once.

Perhaps this will be handled in a similar manner to spell spheres. Either way, it will be interesting to watch.

Physical classes are quite cheap to get up there to where you need it to be unlike Mages where you got to buy all the slots unless gained through levels and then their is the money to focus them and even then some spells don't work to their full advantage due to certain classes/races/Armor Pieces.

This is a misconception. There is no serious difference in cost or stats between mages and warriors to get to where they need to be.
I'll spare you the details though, unless you wish to know them.

[Amara]

As L` has stated already:

Best place for this is not Rants an Raves, we only look in here when we are nudged.

Any suggestions to DEV regarding races, classes, or skills should be placed in the "Player input to Development" section that's located in the link below.

viewforum.php?f=45