IG and Thieves

[Kooky]

Thieves who are active are not that easy to come by.. so IG folks get excited when we know someone is looking to do a shopsteal. But it becomes a HUGE disappointment when an OP NPCs the IG instead of the thief posting their steal to the MB and letting the IG track them down. That's like.. the best part of the job and the most fun; that's our interaction. That's the biggest thing that separates the job from a regular 'guard' job for a House. In a few cases, that's why characters -have- the job, to throw their weight around while serving the Empire. And some have thieves -to- get caught and have that interaction with attempted bribes or talking their way out of it, the play of attempted escape and perhaps manhandling and rape.


Now I know the other side of the spectrum, where the thief-player wants the SL closed up and knit up tight to get on with play or is disappointed no IG seems to be on at that moment and knows their character should be arrested. That feeling of limbo and uncertainty.

It's just.. really, really disappointing when that play gets taken away from the IG folk who are looking to do their jobs. I'm not trying to start anything, just voice an opinion on it and give people something to realize if they don't know.

I play two IG and thieves myself, for the interaction. To me, I'd rather pause and wait for an IG to be available and play out the capture/bribe that way and leave it all up to interaction, to play with a new person/character and see what happens.

[Twerlinger]

There have been a few little niggles over the shop steal write up recently, an inbalance between whats written in one place and another leading to different versions of events happening depending on where your reading the info from, and then in theory this. I'm not trying to point blame or suchness, but could it be that this feeling is coming up because of something else being read differently between places?

I know on the website it states

**NOTE** If the theft is conducted in an empty channel (see WITNESSES near the top of the write up), or without IG present then, in the event of a FAILED escape, the Thief will have left evidence behind that reveals his identity and IG will be called upon to capture the Thief. Normal combat rules will apply. In the case of a 50/50 result, then the "witness" will make the determining 1d2 roll.

Which I take to mean that if there is no PC to witness, or be that IG in question, then evidence should be left and suchness, but when the escape roll is

1-40 = Automatic Failure - CAPTURE or a BRIBE may be attempted
41-70 = 50/50 - IG rolls 1d2 to determine if the Thief is caught - 1 = CAPTURE or BRIBE; 2 = Escape
71-100 = Automatic Success - Escape

It kinda hints that some form of IG is present regardless, perhaps leading to the NPCness being offered.

I'm working on a revamp of some bits, which do still need to be run by Whitemist and the powers that be, but I'll be opening a thread in the Thieves Den for people to post their thoughts/comments and areas that they have for concern over it all, so we try and get things put together in a more understandable way *crosses fingers*
Thread ==> viewtopic.php?f=79&t=22083

That being said, did said thief in this instance, or the instance that lead to this, request that perhaps an NPC be present to have that side of things tied up? Was it just the OP putting one in there to deal with some issue that came up and couldn't be worked around in some other way? Was it simply that one party needed a quick exit due to r/l things or the like? There could be a few options why things were done, and whilst I can see the 'frustration' for the IG at not being able to flex their weight and investigative muscles in things like this, there could be things going on that we aren't/weren't privy to that lead to it.

[Kooky]

I admit in full that I know very little to nothing of what lead to what or required Op intervention or anything. I'm not privy to the going-on's at all of such, but there -is- a lack of thieving and IG work beyond 'patrol this' and random NPC missions we have to self-run that Balard gives us for a lack of things to do. It's sparked a few OOC conversations.

It's just my observation and feeling that.. well.. rolls and protocol seem to be impeding on the fun of the IG job and being a thief all together. There was even discussion in OOC recently on how the punishments are truly out-weighing the reward and 'punishment' play of shopsteals.. as well as a sadness in the lack of options of stealing. Nobles even offered opening up the option of stealing from their Houses for players involved in the discussion, so long as consequences were also accepted if caught and detailing how it could be fun work for House guards as well.

For a world that's supposedly 'dark' there's a distinct lack of an ability to play dark, evil or unlawful characters, let alone play out tasks of upholding ideals of the Empire as playing characters. The system is just against it with mechanics, rewards/punishments and a lack of variety and option. Then disappointments like above just.. add to that. If things get handled OOCly or by OPs, then what do playing characters have left to do? What's the point of playing if there's no interaction of fun? That is what playing is all about.

[Miranda]

*peeks in, reads Kooky's last and nods along*

I wasn't privy to the OOC convo so won't touch on it other than to say I probably would have agreed with the gist.

I don't have much problem with the rewards and, now the pay scales have changed, they do look more enticing. But from a logistical perspective the penalties (especially being automatic vs rolls) are potentially arduous. If Miranda did a steal..well she has a 50/50 chance of potentially ending up with me being committed to two weeks shop RP. (Is being hugely rough with her numbers here but makes a point) and I simply can't do it.

"Well tough titties" I hear you say - and quite right too I suppose. But it is what stops me from doing the steals.

But I've also tried the alternatives that Kooky alludes to. I've tried the options for criminal acts other than steals - and they don't work. At all.

I tried con tricks, elaborate scams, being in disguise yada yada yada ( Hell, the fact shes an entertainer was all part of her cover for example) and -everytime- no matter that I've rp'd getting the outfit/magic/disguise etc - she gets near instantly spotted no matter what I post. And by "everytime" I can think of half a dozen instances of the top of my head.

Now whether that's because people think I want her caught or not I dunno (for the record I enjoy the thrill of the chase. The "can I get away with it" so willing to take it providing actually nailed fair and square - and it feels a bit insulting to people's play for me to shout out that in an OOC manner) but trust me it's a pain to prep five or six hours for a scam, to build up that thrill of the risk..... and to be nailed one post in. Alright I concede I'm neither the best roleplayer or writer - but I can string a sentence sufficiently well together to show she's not walking around with a badge saying "Thief" on it. But bash your head against a wall often enough and you end giving up.

So, as much as the rolls are a barrier (Well certainly if your time limited) I don't see an alternative to them. The alternative, relying on good sportsmanship just does not work. So sadly we need the rolls and protocol. Now as to tweaking them...well that's for Twirls other thread of course.

(Ninja edit so not to disrupt posting order)

.*as an aside...

". Nobles even offered opening up the option of stealing from their Houses for players involved in the discussion, so long as consequences were also accepted if caught and detailing how it could be fun work for House guards as well."

Super idea which could have some variety but could I plead for this sort of thing to go on the MB. I've a gal who's a thief and a gal who's a house guard - and this is the first I've heard of it.

[Twerlinger]

Well in all honesty, if your going for pick pocketing, it doesn't matter if she does or doesn't get spotted in the general course of rp. If you do the rolls and the rolls don't show you as being 'noticed' or caught, then there is no IC information that Miranda has helped herself to someone's ill gotten gains. If they do, despite the rolls saying otherwise, its ooc info being used icly, which is a big no no in happening. But that being said, if your looking to work up 'scams' and the like, perhaps we can get our heads together on working on something that might add a little mechanics to it, and removing some of the 'singular post' your caught things happening?

[Miranda]

Well in all honesty, if your going for pick pocketing, it doesn't matter if she does or doesn't get spotted in the general course of rp. If you do the rolls and the rolls don't show you as being 'noticed' or caught, then there is no IC information that Miranda has helped herself to someone's ill gotten gains.

Oh. Totes agree. But no, these weren't pickpocket jobbies. Stuff of my own back so it wasn't a roll based decision. I actually really like the pick pocket mechanic tbh.

if you looking to work up 'scams' and the like, perhaps we can get our heads together on working on something that might add a little mechanics to it, and removing some of the 'singular post' your caught things happening?

Would love to.

[Twerlinger]

To be fair, the noble thing only happened in the past couple of days and not sure if/how it would work in the long run of things. I'm pretty sure that discussions with some of those in question might yield some temporary suggestions for the time being.

[Risarah]

I don't normally post on the forum but, this post caught my attention. To be honest the risk outweighs the reward. I feel that as a thief it should be profitable. Certain lines of operations in the illegal game are taken out of this game that are traditionally in other fantasy settings. There's no prostitution, No narcotics (You really won't get far being a catnip dealer),You can't rob a bank (It's been stated to be impossible however, that'd be a really cool story to those of you looking to build one if the ops were down with it), Robbinmg stores is negligable since you can make more working. In the end what are thieves to do? Why make enemies when a 9-5 can net you far more money. In other words because of the lack of criminal enterprise the guild has relatively little to do and so being part of it is more a role playing thing. Now Fantasy genre's have showed us Epic thieves. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser from Lankhamer for example. I feel that thievery can work in this game and I'm happy to see that it is an ongoing concern of the Dev to fix it and I'll be brief in my input. If The risk is going to be high...Make the rewards worth that risk. Money in this game is data that facilitates role playing. If upping that amount leads to more people playing thieves and giving the IG purpose go for it. Afterall you can try it out and mod it later as many things have been over the years. I feel that Thieves kinda get a short stick in this game...I just wish that stick was made of pure Methrial....

[L`aquera]

As of now, until something is written in loose parchment to the people of Nanth, try a few alternatives. Don't do your thieving until an ig is around if you really want that interaction.

Or...


Have the OP NPC GUARD take the thief to the jail house for an IG to book and hand out punishment to give both parties that play both are probably seeking.

from what I see this is being discussed a bit in Ops and HC so keep your helmet on until a solution can be worked on

[miyuka]

As I've pointed out many many many many times before. This is a player run game. Even after all is said and done and changes are made and things are implemented, nothing will solve the fact that sometimes people will not just be on and/or available to do these things. It's a very important thing we as adults playing this game need to understand when coming in here. Does it suck when you can't find X shop open or X person to do certain parts of RP? Sure, but that's the double edged sword of a player run game with few/limited options for NPC or automated things.

For a world that's supposedly 'dark' there's a distinct lack of an ability to play dark, evil or unlawful characters, let alone play out tasks of upholding ideals of the Empire as playing characters. The system is just against it with mechanics, rewards/punishments and a lack of variety and option. Then disappointments like above just.. add to that. If things get handled OOCly or by OPs, then what do playing characters have left to do? What's the point of playing if there's no interaction of fun? That is what playing is all about.

Dark is a matter of opinion and this is a world were "dark" things are kind of the norm anyway. Raping, pillaging, fighting, murder, pretty normal. So whatever dark things you are being prevented from doing I'm not entirely sure what it is you want, but save for things that are obviously against the rules you are free to do what you wish, just know that there may or may not be consequences for your actions. As far as ops handling things OOCly, that's something that has to happen at times, (though I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to exactly so I can just assume a broad manner of things). Again, a player run game where we prefer things to be taken care of ICly, but there's always exceptions allowed here and there just so people aren't 'stuck in limbo' in certain situations. At the end of the day, it's a game and it's about having fun, so sometimes OOC things make IC things weird.

[Balard]

I have read through some of the stuff about the IG some have the notion that they are good, but posts/info state that citizens should think of fear and methodical rather then helmed warriors with shinning blades. Also it says Imperial Guards are allowed to organize group/single rapes if ooc consent is given, thats not to say that it is constant thing to happen, one could accept a bribe for a first time punishment for thieves in the form of sex or decide to rape them as punishment, if that makes the rp interesting for you then go for it, second time punishment, stick to the normal punishment as-long as both parties agree the punishment doesn't have to be set. But do remember if you are off duty and the one you have had sex with or raped, tries to kill you or even puts a kill order on you, as Miyuka said "There may or may not be consequences for your actions."