Class Suggestion/Thoughts

[cheshires]

(sorry for x-post, initially written to wrong area of the board I guess!)

I concur, the physical advanced classes look very lacking. The problem is advanced casters have all these level gated powerful spells which they can dump plenty of mehrial in to get high slot count/strong spells. The weapons/items available to physical classes that are not available to the mage classes do not even begin to make up for this difference. I know it's an isolated incident, but I remember the one dice fight I insisted on with someone of relatively equal level, I was literally one shot with the stamina drain spell because they had enough slots in it. The base stats on weapons/armors not available to casters just don't make the difference in power/utility up whatsoever. Casters essentially get access to all the stats that melee do, plus the spells as far as I can tell. I'm not an expert on this games rules, but it certainly does feel unfair (to the point I've seen people retcon their character to get magic).

And yeah, there is definitely a big gap in the advanced classes for physical types. I really think there should be an advanced class available for Rangers/Thieves that's purely physical. Ranger/Thief options that I know of are Hierophant, Mist Raider, Seductress, Earth Mage, and Necromancer? Four of these are magical and thieves don't even have a base spell sphere and neither do Ranger? So confusing. Mist Raider seems like Ranger 2.0 with a baked in lurk spell - this class just seems superfluous - they need to be made different from each other in meaningful ways other than verbiage. I think there should be an advanced class for thief - for example "Smuggler" or "Crime Lord", and that Mist Raider needs to be touched up to make it more different than just Lurk+Stats.



Ways to fix this that I can think of
A. Make physical class specific items base stats more valuable - pretty straight forward but might have issues balancing for multi-classsers.
B. Game System such as Feats, Weapon Skills, whichever you would want to call it - lot of games have these of different variety - basically a melee 'spell' that adds effects/conditions/modifiers to attack/defense. Examples - Cleave (hit multiple targets with one blade), Blind fighting ( as name suggests), Weapon Throw (you get the idea, there's probably tons of sources to draw from for things like this with varying mechanics and pros/cons)
C. Improve advanced class passives to have some sort of power scaling beyond normal equipment/enchantments.


TLDR : Mages get lots of utility, stats, and power out of their spell kit. Other advanced classes have low impact passives that don't keep up. Mist Raider needs to be an actual advanced class instead of a lurk passive. Thief class needs an advanced class that is - non-magic.

[miyuka]

First off, let me start off by saying this is Belariath. This is not D&D or Pathfinder or WoW or whatever you are comparing it to. Secondly, while it is a slow process, classes are being updated by Dev. This includes physical classes. Certain classes don't -need- an advanced class. Would it be nice to have them? Sure. It'd be nice to have a lot of things we currently don't have or may never get. There's more to combat than just weapons/armor/spells. Physical classes don't have to spend anywhere near as much points leveling up spells (or the insane amount of money maxing out said spells) which means they get to spend more points on actual stats. Certain classes get access to certain weapons and armour that mages do not.

You say you've seen people retcon their chars to get magic. I say I've seen people retcon their chars to not have magic. So what of it? Could weapons and armour use a once over? Sure. It might happen sometime in the future, it might not. You can't just look at one aspect of the classes, however and just say there's a huge gap because the game doesn't work a certain way you think it should. Are there some balance issues? Sure, no one system is perfect, but when you have a dice system like we do, nothing is guaranteed (save for modifiers). If the gap were as huge as you were suggesting then physical chars would -never- have a chance against any magical char and I can assure you, most tournament winners are of a physical class and a lot of fights I've been a part of and witnessed have gone in the favor of the physical class.

That being said, if you have a valid write up for an advanced class you'd like to submit, I'd say go for it, just keep in mind time and space are limited when it comes to these things so you may not get what you want.

[cheshires]

I know which game this is! *grins* Phrasing funny, poor choice of words. You're right, no class NEEDS an advanced class. But it certainly would be nice to have options that are comparable ; or at least gameplay interesting. As far as other games go, they are professional - and as such a bit of industry standard. There's nothing wrong with comparing systems and methods of other games to see if good ideas from them carry over in some manner or format. Also, I've been off and on this game since 2005. While I'm not very active I am fully aware of how slow rule and class changes are to be take effect in this game. I don't expect things to ever get done quickly here ; too many people involved in the decisions naturally and there's always the issue of small changes can have big effects. There's really no need to caveat responses with 'it's going to take a long time if anything ever gets done.' I liked this game enough from the mid 2000s version enough to keep coming back so there is definitely a lot of great material/rules. It really can only get better from here and I don't mind waiting to see what happens!

This game is never going to be really balanced. I'm not much of a stats person but the normal dice system has such a huge variation in rolls that anything can happen in isolated incidents. It's really a question of what is more probable. So look into the numbers. If anyone is handy with stats and would like to run a comparison, it would be awesome. Until I figure out the math or someone posts it, I still assert the balance favors advanced casters. My first hand observations are only mentioned to point out the fact that players feel it's unbalanced and have made decisions with their character based on that. In other games this is known as FOTM.

I can't speak for all players, but any class based game, I want my class choices to feel meaningful even if they are not balanced. Thief is neat because of the utility/stealing aspect. Mages are neat because they have spells to rely on. Warriors in most games are neat because they are extra tough and hard to take out! Mist Raider doesn't look meaningful when I read the page. To be more concise, it doesn't appear to add -meaningful gameplay decisions- to the game. It doesn't have any sort of combat effect and the utility it offers is mostly duplicated by various magic spells. It just looks like the advanced caster classes have had a LOT of effort put into them. It doesn't look like Mist Raider has received as much as attention. Paladin seems middle of the pack, better than Mist Raider in terms of completion. Monk and Warlord seem much more finished, although they have fairly punishing restrictions to them, which make them unappealing in some cases. I'm not sure how one would evaluate that for cost effectiveness though. Still, the classes to me, just don't pass the eyeball test. So you can understand what makes me think this way:

Adv Physical: Monk, Paladin, Warlord, Mist Raider

Adv Caster: Air Mage, Fire Mage, Water Mage, Earth Mage, Necromancer, Hierophant, Seductress, Priestess

Both: Warrior-Mage

One might argue the four mage variants are really extensions of the same class, I kind of feel that way, but they each have unique spell spheres. All of the casters have a respectable amount of class specific spells. Adv physicals get weapon access/some passives. Way more writeup and effort seem to have been put in the spell section of the game than the physical aspect. Casters certainly have a lot more flavor/variety in such decisions.

That's the impression I get when I look over the page and rules. Even if it's not truly balanced, physicals need some love to add some flavor/distinction in what they do ; not just from distinction from the caster advanced classes, but also from each other.


Cheshire out!

[Logolar]

Here is the thing. Advanced Physical classes get a pretty clear stat bonus compared to the mage classes. They have to spend points on spells which we do not. I just did a quick !stats of everyone my same level.
I have higher STR then anyone else, my INT is of course low. (No reason to have magical ability as a warlord, and it makes sense ICly to be weak against ranged weapons.) AGI is the third highest of the group, but not more then 20 points difference. RES is fourth highest, but nothing more then a 20 point difference. STAM tied for highest, but the difference in the rest is everywhere from 25-40. Life is the highest with a difference of 8-59 points. I do a balanced approach to most stats so they aren't the highest, but on average my stats are better. Points wise I can do most things better then them, take more hits and fight longer. I may not be able to hit as hard, but I can defend against the counter attacks. You really do start to see the difference in points the higher you get.

[17:44] <Gravik> !stats Gravik
[17:44] <Desdaemona> Character 'Gravik' (level 40 Warlordx5) stats: Str 81 (121) Int 17 Agi 80 Res 80 Stam 75 Life 80
[17:45] <Gravik> !stats KatieKat
[17:45] <Desdaemona> Character 'KatieKat' (level 40 Magex6/Thief) stats: Str 13 Int 96 Agi 92 Res 50 Stam 50 Life 21
[17:45] <Gravik> !stats Lucas
[17:45] <Desdaemona> Character 'Lucas' (level 40 Earth Magex5) stats: Str 52 Int 85 Agi 52 Res 85 Stam 75 Life 67
[17:45] <Gravik> !stats Marissa
[17:46] <Desdaemona> Character 'Marissa' (level 40 Fire Magex5) stats: Str 22 Int 110 Agi 61 Res 100 Stam 42 Life 50
[17:46] <Gravik> !stats Oruedin Kye
[17:46] <Desdaemona> Character 'Oruedin Kye' (level 40 Knightx4/Thiefx3) stats: Str 72 Int 40 Agi 102 Res 58 Stam 40 Life 50

[cheshires]

This is a pretty good start, but not really conclusive or thorugh from a stats standpoint. What probably needs to be done is something like this; (I'm probably going to mess this up somehow)

Solve for optimal stat allocation at x level per class (I would probably try intervals of 10 levels) for maximum 'win' percentage.
Factor in multiple class selections:
Factor in max enchantmentments/equipment:
Find a way to account for stamina loss:
Valuate combat spells to solve for optimal attack methods:
Account for status altering effects that can end fights suddenly or other ways in which the fight is not resolved through pure damage:
Do a simulation where each class combination/level combination fights another class combination a few thousand times and see where the percentages lie:
Round robin that for all possible combinations:
Compare win rates:

There's probably more to it than that, but I hope it conveys the idea. I would do it myself, but I really don't have the requisite knowledge to program/spreadsheet something like this. There's probably more to it than just a simple outline like this. I get it, it's not an easy problem to solve, but the game is one of the oldest around and there are a lot of people involved in a lot more intelligent than I am

[miyuka]

Cheshires:

There's really no need to caveat responses with 'it's going to take a long time if anything ever gets done.'

I always caveat my responses with this. You have no idea how many times I've had to deal with someone that brought up an idea and then kept hounding me about it wanting results and answers expecting it to be done in a week. I figure while you may already be aware of it, other people who read this may not be so when they do read this, now they know. Also a class may not look meaningful to -you- but someone could say the same thing about any given class. Not every class is going to seem meaningful or appeal to everyone. Heck, there are some classes I personally don't think appeal to me in the least but then I see other people playing them and I'm like "huh...I guess people like that." That goes back to what I just mentioned though. While I was answering your questions and concerns, I did it in a way that others reading could try to understand as well. Also I try to be as straight forward as possible when I reply. I can't stand giving a vague response so if I sound a bit blunt about something I do apologize.

On the matter of Mist Raider you might note that there are a few classes that seem like they don't have much or their write up is old. You'd be quite correct. They are. Dev is actually going through all the classes one by one and bringing them up to speed. You'll note that is the same with some of the race pages as well as the some of the spell spheres. We're getting there bit by bit.

Logolar: thanks

[cheshires]

Ok, awesome! That's great news. I will definitely keep my eyes out for changes. As long as it's being looked at eventually and thanks for letting everyone know it's being looked at ^.^

[lyllamarie]

Here is the thing -- Dev has worked on many angles to try to bring classes up to 'level' intune with the mass amount of bitching--- err feedback. We have ideas in place, and let me tell you it took years just to get half way done, because each class is unique and deserves that much attention to it. Why have they not been implemented? Well, for one, rolling out an incomplete project and not even testing it really fucks with our own equilibrium. In addition, the system to sell and upkeep it requires space and massive amounts of coding which just isn't available yet.

In the meantime, we micro-manage what we can. We update the Classes and Races to try and bring a bit more unique abilities to each class, physical or magical. I have spreadsheets out the ass tracking an individual classes max defense and attack potential just by add-on's alone, how much stamina and how many rounds is required. If it comes down to physical defense, many classes are pretty even across the board.

Of course that's not always, but, given a certain classes max potential in a perfect scenario, there will be those instances where one particular class is going to have an all-kill, or damn well pretty close. It's like meeting a boxer on his home turf. Yeah that mage might be able to buff himself up to gargantuan levels, but it's going to take him upteenth rounds and drain his stamina while he does it, but look at that, he's dedicated so much time, spell slots and statistics just to buff up his pretty little spell, in the meantime he's open himself up to attack the next four rounds or has to !evade -- meanwhile his opponent is free to attack, and since they've poured most stats into what makes a hit count, they will have a higher percentage of hitting. That is what happened MOST OF THE TIME -- and don't tell me it doesn't, because while we only ever hear about the fights that ended because 'physical classes have it so rough', there are ten other fights going on behind the scenes that play out just as expected. A mage can get a hit in once or twice, but they are going to focus on long-range and defense so they can make a clean exit.

Now, as to all those formulaic ideas on how to discover whether the classes are 'really' on even playing field, why don't you go ahead and figure it out. We're not going to do that kind of work for you. We do enjoy submissions and really love it when they are well though out, keep in mind the flavor and spirit of what we try to accomplish, and DO try to incorporate what we can from player feedback. I mean, most of us in Dev aren't huge dice-buffs, most of us are pretty set in the game and try to use what time we have to relax -- spazzing over numbers only gives us migraines. Instead, we do it for others, because of the numerous amount of little voices that we hear in the OOC or on the boards. We know some things should be fixed, and sometimes things really -don't- need to be fixed, or if they do, just not to the extent everyone thinks.

In the meantime, while you're cooking up those numbers, (remember we won't!) just keep in mind that while we'll do our best to adjust little by little things in the games to keep up to speed with a true gamer's heart, if you REALLY don't like it.. Well, then don't play it. Don't bother, because, there are plenty who will and who make us wonder if it really ever was 'broke' like some folks believe to begin with -- that's how its supposed to be done, and we approve of that wholeheartedly.

[L`aquera]

I'm totally sad you didn't do one for L... *sadface*

[Farvel]

I'm totally sad you didn't do one for L... *sadface*

He was comparing stats of different classes at the same level (in this case, 40)

[crow]

Gosh am I pleased to stumble across this. I was looking for something fun to do and it's been too long since I played with math. ^^

Do you know why we still see physical classes ranking in tournaments? Because every single one of them has their try-hard-mix-max-caps on to even compete. And literal substance abuse in the form of magic potions. xD

Here is the thing. Advanced Physical classes get a pretty clear stat bonus compared to the mage classes.

Unless the website is wrong, this is factually wrong.
Firemage: 18 (Class Bonuses: Int+12 Res+3 Lfe+3)
Warlord: 18 (Class Bonuses: Str+7 Int+1 Agi+3 Res+1 Lfe+6)

They have to spend points on spells which we do not. I just did a quick !stats of everyone my same level.

They have to do to no such thing. That they happen to choose to do so is not an argument. Anyone can sabotage their own stats if they so choose. It is akin to arguing you must invest in equipment slots to carry things you do not need in a fight but would like to have.

It is a trade off of fighting prowess for convenience. It is an option to pour stats into spellslots to splurge on learning an entire spellsphere, but there is nothing stopping a combat conscious mage from grabbing an essentially free 15slot firebolt without a single point investment into spellslots. Which would put the mage squarely above the warrior.
(Mage and Warrior are used as short hand concepts in this paragraph, not the actual class.)

Advanced Physical classes get a pretty clear stat bonus compared to the mage classes.
...
I do a balanced approach to most stats so they aren't the highest, but on average my stats are better.

We need only to look at your examples, to see this does not hold up.

In order:
Total stats Lucas: 378.5 Mage (52+85+52+85 = 274 Dice Stats... 75/2=37.5+67=104.5 Stam/Life Stats)
Total stats Gravik: 375.5 Warrior (81+17+80+80 = 258 Dice Stats... 75/2=37.5+80=117.5 Stam/Life Stats)
Total stats Marissa: 365.0 Mage (22+110+61+100 = 294 Dice Stats... 42/2=21+50=71 Stam/Life Stats)

Lucas, the pure Mage, has higher total stats than you do, the pure Warrior.
Marissa is barely 9.5 points behind you (a whopping 2.5%) and she has 44 spell slots stuffed into that difference. (And over 100 spells total.)
I can't even fathom what happened there, but it does neatly show how well the "Physical classes have more stats than magic classes" theory holds up, doesn't it?
(I did not include Katie and Oruedin, because both of them have not taken advanced classes and thus are not on the same level as the other three.)

Really, the balance of the system is depended on mages willingly choosing to gimp themselves by spending their stats on spell slots to such a ludicrous degree as to somehow make up for all the spell effects and armor penetration they get tagged on to their attacks. Though I could put a number on how many stats add up to the penetration, I cannot begin to pull a calculation on how many stats are worth what in terms of spell effects, so I don't blame the Dev's for not knowing either. It's not a solution.

Here is the thing -- Dev has worked on many angles to try to bring classes up to 'level' in tune with the mass amount of bitching--- err feedback.

The Dev's are awesome. I just want to make that clear. I'm of course still going to bitch on occasion, it's therapeutic. ^.~

Yeah that mage might be able to buff himself up to gargantuan levels, but it's going to take him upteenth rounds and drain his stamina while he does it, but look at that, he's dedicated so much time, spell slots and statistics just to buff up his pretty little spell, in the meantime he's open himself up to attack the next four rounds or has to !evade -- meanwhile his opponent is free to attack, and since they've poured most stats into what makes a hit count, they will have a higher percentage of hitting.

Did you happen to also take into account spells such as "Water Wall", (and to a less potent, but still substantial extent: "Stun bolt", "Quick Sand" or "Fire Cell") which allow the mage in question to simply take his sweet time buffing and regaining stamina, THEN start the real fight at his leisure?

That is what happened MOST OF THE TIME -- and don't tell me it doesn't, because while we only ever hear about the fights that ended because 'physical classes have it so rough', there are ten other fights going on behind the scenes that play out just as expected. A mage can get a hit in once or twice, but they are going to focus on long-range and defense so they can make a clean exit.

If we only ever hear about the fights where 'physical classes have it so rough' how do we know the other fights play out as expected? Don't get me wrong though, even in a nearly perfectly balanced system, where the only difference is depended on the situation, of course warriors are still going to whine about warriors being too weak. And Mages will whine about mages being too weak. That is just a fact of life and game design.

However, in my experience I've never seen mages seriously say mages are too weak, and that is concerning. It is not because they don't whine, but they whine specifically about their particular brand: "Earth mages are too weak compared to Fire Mages. Just look at X, Y, Z." It's never the warriors they are competing with, only other mages. That alone should say something.

The biggest difference though, is that when you ask a warrior why mages are stronger, they give you facts about the combat and stats system and math. If you ask a mage you get "Warrior X always beats me."

[Logolar]

See. I did take that into consideration, but I took every stat into consideration, even life and stam. Lucas, yes..He does beat me on his average, but he ignored most of his spells. He has 5 combat spells, with only one at 15 slots, and he CANNOT even cast the spell. He doesn't have the prerequisites for the spell.


Still, I'll do the chart that I had to actually compare the classes.

STR INT AGI RES STAM LIFE AVERAGE OF ALL STATS
Gravik 81 17 80 80 75 80 68.83333333
KatieKat 13 96 92 50 50 21 53.66666667
Lucas 52 85 52 85 75 67 69.33333333
Marrisa 22 110 61 100 42 50 64.16666667
Oruedin 72 40 102 58 40 50 60.33333333

Yes, his stats beat mine with the total average, but he completely ignored spells. He cannot even cast the one spell he decided to max. The only thing this character can really do is use normal weapons, and I assume the thought process behind him was to use diamond skin to buff himself, but it's an invalid spell. So in all actually he's a warrior with some connection to the earth.


Also, yes I realized that we have the same bonus to states. AKA the same amount of stats each time the class is selected. It was designed that way, but where I meant the stat advantage comes out is when mages buy their spells. If you don't buy any, sure you're not going to have much of a difference, but then...Why take the mage class?

[crow]

I apologize for slightly mixing the order of these quotes, but it is only to have an easier time responding. Not any attempt to misconstrue what you are saying.

See. I did take that into consideration, but I took every stat into consideration, even life and stam.

Still, I'll do the chart that I had to actually compare the classes.

STR INT AGI RES STAM LIFE AVERAGE OF ALL STATS
Gravik 81 17 80 80 75 80 68.83333333
KatieKat 13 96 92 50 50 21 53.66666667
Lucas 52 85 52 85 75 67 69.33333333
Marrisa 22 110 61 100 42 50 64.16666667
Oruedin 72 40 102 58 40 50 60.33333333

I also included the life and stam in the calculation. I put the calculation behind the result for transparency.
However, looking at this chart, I notice that you did not account for the fact that Stam is worth only 0.5 points due to the way leveling stats is done. (12points per lvl, str/int/res/agi cost 2 points, sta costs 1 point.)

Lucas, yes..He does beat me on his average, but he ignored most of his spells. He has 5 combat spells, with only one at 15 slots, and he CANNOT even cast the spell. He doesn't have the prerequisites for the spell.

Yes, his stats beat mine with the total average, but he completely ignored spells. He cannot even cast the one spell he decided to max. The only thing this character can really do is use normal weapons, and I assume the thought process behind him was to use diamond skin to buff himself, but it's an invalid spell. So in all actually he's a warrior with some connection to the earth.

He serves only to demonstrate that a mage can have better stats than a warrior, and still have room for a 15slot spell. It is irrelevant what choices he actually made.(More over, I don't want to discuss his build, because I would not want to be caught dead critiquing another person's build in public. I'd get in trouble. ^^; Heck I get in trouble for doing that in private.)

Also, yes I realized that we have the same bonus to states. AKA the same amount of stats each time the class is selected. It was designed that way, but where I meant the stat advantage comes out is when mages buy their spells. If you don't buy any, sure you're not going to have much of a difference, but then...Why take the mage class?

Well there are two ways of 'buying' spells aren't there? There is no rule which says a mage must buy spells with stats. Rather, they could buy spells with MHL. Which does get prohibitively expensive towards the 10+ but you can simply buy up to 10, then fill the extra 5 in with the free spell slots you get from your classes.

I do not understand the last question. Why take a fully statted mage class if you are just going to be completely statistically superior to everyone else?

[Shoji]

Ok, just pointing this out as it's come up a couple times and not really been elaborated on.

A Mage can 'gimp' his stats, by spending points at level up on Spell Slots. A warrior can do the same by buying up Equipment Slots for gear...

Where the difference comes in, and in my opinion, in the advantage of the Mage, is that buying spell slots with level up points is not their ONLY option. They can also spend Mhl to purchase them at the SS. A warrior can never 'buy' more equipment slots with Mhl, so they HAVE to spend their level up points for them where Mages do not.

A Warrior tends to have better Strength and Agility, their to hit roll in close combat maneuvers...so yes, statistically they will get hits. However, again...any armor that a Mage has(Physical + Enchants + Spells) will apply to this hit, giving them potentially a +45 to the defence roll(with spells at 15 and max'd/enchanted armor). The best weapon, maxed out is a +15 I believe total to attack...so definately not even'd out. A pure Warrior, can ONLY use his Enchanted Def Bonus against spells, physical armor means nothing against a Mage unless for some reason they are attacking with a normal attack/weapon instead of any magic.

Not saying these are HORRIBLY GAME BREAKING....but they are other ways that mechanically, magic is more sound an option

[crow]

Ok, just pointing this out as it's come up a couple times and not really been elaborated on.

A Mage can 'gimp' his stats, by spending points at level up on Spell Slots. A warrior can do the same by buying up Equipment Slots for gear...

Where the difference comes in, and in my opinion, in the advantage of the Mage, is that buying spell slots with level up points is not their ONLY option. They can also spend Mhl to purchase them at the SS. A warrior can never 'buy' more equipment slots with Mhl, so they HAVE to spend their level up points for them where Mages do not.

This is an interesting point. I would also like to mention that a mage is not merely obtaining a spell slot with his stat point, but an entire spell. Where the Warrior only gets the capacity to carry more equipment, but still has to buy the actual equipment with MHL too, unlike the mage who gets his spell without paying MHL. (Though I do not think the solution is to allow warriors to materialize weapons/armor whenever they take a equipment slot. xD)

A Warrior tends to have better Strength and Agility, their to hit roll in close combat maneuvers...so yes, statistically they will get hits.

The first part is true, but the second part does not logically follow. I'm confused.

However, again...any armor that a Mage has(Physical + Enchants + Spells) will apply to this hit, giving them potentially a +45 to the defence roll(with spells at 15 and max'd/enchanted armor). The best weapon, maxed out is a +15 I believe total to attack...so definately not even'd out. A pure Warrior, can ONLY use his Enchanted Def Bonus against spells, physical armor means nothing against a Mage unless for some reason they are attacking with a normal attack/weapon instead of any magic.

Not saying these are HORRIBLY GAME BREAKING....but they are other ways that mechanically, magic is more sound an option

An excellent point.