The OOC Room

[Tawny]

Oh no Chrystine. No one has won anything until this is sorted out and taken care of. Until the game is back like it is suppost to be. Infernis has a right to his opinion as do we all. I just would like to see this taken care of. I would like the game running smoothly and the OOC room opened so the players old and new have a place to gather talk and get help if they need it. I understand both sides point of view and I just hope this doesnt turn into a player against player or player against OPs cause that wont solve anything and only make things worse. And just so no one blames anyone wrongly The OPS did not remove Adonais thread. I had made a post to the thread and seen after wards that I was in error and when I tawny tried to delete my post it deleted the whole thread. It was not done on purpose and I will do what ever I can to help Adonai get it back up. But I wanted to make sure everyone knew NOT to blame anyone for it but me if you need to blame someone for something done accidently. I have already spoke to Adonai so he knows it was me and not the OPS.
So can we not point fingers and each other and work on how to fix the problems in our game so it can be back like it should be please. I am sure the OPs dont really like this anymore than the players do. Hating wont fix this, working together might.

[Adonai]

Infernis, you know I like you as you ar a good RPer and most of the times when we talk I happen to agree with your ideas but I just can't agree with what you said. It's true that many times there is a lot of people in the OOC and too few RPing but this can also be seen from another point.

I'm sure even you would like to avoid playing with some people, maybe you don't like them as a whole, maybe you just don't like their RP style, so if they are the ones available for RP, you're just not going to bother.

Similar to that, many people will not be willing to go into a channel and try to find RP, they want to have someone to RP before that. It's not setting up a scene, it's just making sure you have someone to play with as most of us don't like monologing and have better things to do than doing that (even if those better things to do include not doing anything).

I will also not agree that community isn't fragile. Don't tell me that the true community is going to survive... What is that true comunity? the OPs and half a dozen players? The game should have about 50 or 60 active players (including OPs) remove the OOC for a long time and you'll be left with OPs and a handful of them, the rest will just move on, consider the game dead.

Last I'd like you all to just bear one thing in mind. Stop saying we're all adults, lets behave like adults and not create drama. Really? Do you think children are the ones who create drama? Children have little reason to have drama. Maybe someone stole their canday or they wanted to play a game but it was bed time or maybe some other kid beat them. Us adults have a ton of shit to worry about in the real world. We adults have hundreds of more reasons to create drama than children and we're human, we can only take so much before we blow at someone. We try not to, but it will happen at a point or another. the only real difference between adults and children is that after our heads cool down we know that we were wrong and for the most part we'll just say sorry and hope the other person accepts our appologies. Just don't think that because we're adults we're not going to have drama. Children don't have a lot of stress in thrie lifes unlike we adults do.

In truth, children have more drama than most adults, most adults i meet the only drama they have in love. that is why we all say adults. Adults normally only have real drama in love lives, or paying bills, no reason to make it online. To do so is pathetic and high schoolish. There is a reason we say ADults. You should be grown out of most of the BS by now.

[Dravion]

Well a topic I am actually going to put a response out about, who would have guessed. I will just kinda break things down into bullet points.

1) I do disagree with closing the OOC room, I think is central to the TLI community and should not be held in such straits. If the Ops feel that it necessary to but a few social rules in place then have at it. But likely most problems could be solved by having said parties work it out between themselves.

2) If as an player or an OP you are getting stressed, take a step back, leave the rooms and go relax somewhere. One of the posts up above suggested OPs are arguing behind the scenes about some of the things going on and as I have no way to know about any of that I would hope thats not used in determining the fate of the OOC room.

3) AS to the point that people lurk in the OOC room and do not RP, I would say...so what. It happens on every major/moderate RP chat out there. OOC is always the largest room by far and is loss usually drives down the number of people IC. If folks are not going IC enough then it is normally due to a few other causes such as too few SLs to drive them, an imbalance in IC char power and capabilities, or the formation of RP social circles excludes them.

I could go on but will leave at those few points for now. But if anyone has an issue with folks not RPing I would ask how long are you sitting in RP rooms promoting random and engaging RP. I know numerous players and OPs alike that do not RP with just anyone, its always prearranged. And in truth there is nothing wrong with that, the way of the world. Random RP with people you do not know is a risk and if the leaders of the chat, and by that I mean OPs and player alike, are not leading the way to mitigate this effect then it will remain.

TLI also does have a power balance issue. There is no ceiling, no cap, and the game never resets. After more than a decade it means some chars are so powerful that they effectively are unapproachable by a majority of the chat in the spirit of what the chat is trying to provide and adult themed fantasy experience. L and Infy, your great examples. Who is going to approach either of those chars in an adversarial capacity? Only a few other chars in the game. The players of those chars end up forming that RP social group and so it goes. Sure both of you may and do have Alts, but everyone gets defined by their main, alts are normally something created to interact with others already with a person's main char's social group, with an intent to create a different dynamic there.

In short if you have a people going IC problem, those two areas are likely the starting point. Not loitering in the OOC room.

[Marren]

k, so i haven't read all the replies, or even the majority of them... honestly, i dont care what they say. I've seen enough. I''ve bounced in and out of TLI for ten years. yes, i leave a lot and dont come back for a long time, but... I COME BACK. why? cause i like the -game-. yep. I like being able to say that I'm a wolven with the ability to heal wounds that should end a life. think its pretty awesome actually. hell, I like TLI more than i like video games. or even movies.

my point is, I'm almost thirty years old, and for ten years, i've visited this game more than any other ive ever played, because truthfully, its my favorite game. there are a few things that make it my favorite game. the people I play with, the truely amazing stories that the RP produces, and the talented people who make the game's inner-gears turn. you got those? Players, Rp, Ops. OOC is a luxury, and honestly, i dont think we really need it right now. I've seen the game suffer for a while, because people want to cause problems in OOC. I've seen people cuss at ops until their kicked out, then come back like nothing happened. Seriously? I saw in one post here, something like, adults are always gonna create drama. THATS TRUE. drama is easy to deal with, if the players are willing to help the ops deal. but when players push the ops until they have to kick, and then still other players bitch and moan at the Ops in PM's, get kicked, and then want to whine about "well thats not fair, they kicked me for no reason" no, you got kicked for being an idiot, own it!

What people seem to forget is that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. you wanna play around? fine, we'll play around. but you wanna start disrespecting the people who sacrifice -their- valuable time to make this piece of art work properly, well, its my opinion that if you cant show those ops the respect they deserve, you can take yourself to -another- game, where they let players get short with the ops, scream cuss and generally treat their ops like turds floating down shit's creek. cause we dont need that shit here.

now, I've been in an unofficial OOC room since the official one shut down. and i've seen people (lots of them 30 or so) come and go, and all want to discuss this topic. some are laid back and reserved, others are seriously freaking out, because they think its the end of TLI. I'll not mention names, because that would be rude, but some really good people play this game. however.. some really not good people play too. and i have to say, im dissapointed in some. and honestly i dont feel like pulling any punches. how DARE you insult the ops in such a way? you think you got what it takes to run a game like this? go ahead, I dare you to even try! none of you ... no.. there are a few of you who really piss me off, again, no names. you really think saying things like, "if i were running things, " and then "the first thing i'd do is fire..." dude, shut the f up! you -dont- run things, StormBringer, Ehlanna, L`aquera, and their team of Ops, or Moderators, they run things, and dont forget it. if it weren't for them, you wouldn't have ever had an OOC room to lose, so quit your bitching, suck it up and fuc*ing do what they say. or you can leave. its that simple.

I said it earlier today, "if people think the ops are so mean, did they ever think of trying to be nice to them? maybe they'd return the gesture." but people had to push shit to the next level, and this is what you get. take it. or leave it. and no, im not worried about offending players sensibilities or whatever. why? cause honestly, some of them dont have any! no f'ing sense at all! what makes you think you've got the right to scream out in an OOC channel for another player to "shut the fuck up!" are you serious? come and yell in my face... please. just once..

I'm sorry to be so blunt about all of this but you all, everyone of you asked for it. I've heard whining and complaing about the ops since i came back a few months ago, "Oh, L`s mean" or some shit.... you know what? YOU MADE HER MEAN. she doesn't get mean until some douchebag starts testing her, and testing and poking and proding, and then when she has had enough and kicks them she's mean? no fuck that. L`aquera has -never- been short or abusive toward me in any way, shape or form. now you might say, "but she took away our OOC" or "but she's bein mean to the players, and your a player"

So? as a unit, the player population made L and her ops get aggressive. we've thrown so much crap at them that the only way to handle it all is to fight back, and i hate to say it that way because it sounds like a war and it -isnt-. at least it shouldn't be... it wouldn't be either, if we could just follow the damned rules that were set down IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE... but nooo.

Now i count alot of players in this game among the people I call "Friends", and I think after this, i'll lose the majority of them. but i dont care. know why? cause I support -the game-. and with it, I support the staff that runs it. sure, players might leave, but more will come. I'll bring them myself if I have to.

I'm tired, people. tired of seeing the disrespect, the malice and unwarranted sniping/bashing of ops. so I'll say this now for the unofficial channel that i help moderate. anyone found to be bashing/sniping TLI ops will be kicked. repeat offenders will be banned. no exceptions. non negotiable.

sniping will be defined here as: "snide or lewd comments made with malicious intent" because thats what i -thought- the word meant when i typed it. now, i'm done. you got something to say to me? unless your an Op of TLI, or have something truely CONSTRUCTIVE to say on the matter, dont bother, i probably dont want to here your bitching. Ops/ Moderators may message me as they see fit. have a nice day, and Merry part.

[Chrystine Moonspell]

Ok first of all, my appologies to Infernis, i was... well... rather upset yesterday when i did my last post in this thread.

I lashed at you and i should not have, especially in that manner.

And no i am not being cohersed (or whatever its written like) or threatened into saying this. Did not erase the post because well, yes i said those things in a fit of anger and Infernis is entituled to know that. Like i said, sometimes we all lose it.

That being said, as you can see closing the room only brought more drama. Cause now we have players turning against player, players turning against Ops, though hopefully not Ops against Ops, even if we have no way of knowing that. However it has caused major Drama.

You can say it will die down in a few days. I see ppl still complaining about the last time it was shut, are you sure it ever does?

I agree with Marren in one thing. I love this game. I have come here to play since i was 24 and i will be turning 32 next year. Almost 10 years here. No i am not the most valued or well known player and yes i can go an entire day without rping, just idling in the room. Do i like it? No!

It sucks being there and not doing anything, but sometimes you want to rp a certain character and they only react well with a with a few players and well yes sometimes they are not online. I do no jump into a channel and hope for the best because i really dont like it most of times. I much prefer to talk to the person before, and if they are nice or funny or just have a wonderfully creative mind i will gladly go IC with them.
But even when i do not get to rp, i get to be with my friends. And no i do not consider them just the guys in some game none of my friends understand because its not a video game.

I consider them my friends, i take time to memorize names if given, to remember b-days, to know that maybe person a is secretly going through some tough irl problems and that i should remember to ask if that person is ok once in a while. To ask about their kids... hell some of you when i met you were pregnant and now you have kids in school. And i try to remember their names. Because that is what friends do. I still can't help but to have tears in my eyes when i think of Marot... Even if not IRL, i knew him. Same goes for all the others. I wonder what happened to Morrigan all the time.

The OOC did that. It might not be its purpose but to me and lots of ppl, the OOC is the neighbourhood bar i go to be with my friends. And yes ppl sometimes fight there. Just toss them out for a couple of moments like you would a drunk. They will sober up. But closing the bar? Closing the room we can do so many things and be in touch with all that is happening? Like it or not, game or not... these are our friends, our loved ones, our families.

The OOC matters to most of us.
And i am sorry, in this we have the right to be upset... Its an important part of this game and of the gamers that trully love tli.

[Wadeywade]

I was gone two days sick and when I came back, I thought the end of the world happened! no, serious.. it was only Des and me, sort of like that movie night of the comet!
Anyways, on to a more serious note, I back what you did. not because I've seen alot of drama, though I have seen it. I believed you guys had it under control and I still do, if this is what it takes, I'm ok with that.

[Adonai]

Marren, such a beautiful post, now that i should be getting my post back i want to say something i noticed, people were politely op bashing, which si weird, mainyl saying not to offend you (me, cause i rp with the ops and a lot know it lol) but it was probably X i told people to stop it, this is the main reason ooc got closed, i will repeat it again and please send this to others.

1) History is just repeating it's self, perhaps it is because people don't read the forums like they should, this happened YEARS ago, about 2-3, for the same damn reasons. GROW THE HELL UP.

2) I do like the fact so many tried to jump in arms for my guides, i am a bit touched to a point I Honestly didn't know so many people liked the guide, I only knew Selenity would link it to newbies, and I Would. So I have to say, at least thank you for trying to defend me I do not agree that it jumped so high into mob mentality, it was kind of scary to be truthful.

3) In my channel, when I told people to drop it, because it was my channel I would talk to the HC, about it. Everyone went quiet and changed subject, now my question is why can't we do this for people that work for this place for years? I mean it is no secret, I would love to become an OP, i know it is a thankless job, but i want it for multiple reasons, only a few know of it, and those i jest with are the ones who mainly want me to as well, but that is beside the point because, I am NOT an OP, so PLEASE, I beg you guys to start showing the people who do this unpaid, i mean some get EXP for their work if its for the game behind the scenes but anyone does that helps like that. My point is do you go up to the mailman and kick him in the balls? Do you goto the trash man and give him a wedgie then throw him in a trash can? No. Why? You are more mature than this, you are not some childish little prick. (Granted the trashcan thing made me snicker at the idea, i would never do it.) I know I am not the most respected member of TLI but in my channel, I get it, so what is up with this? Please, just show them the same respect you have shown the ops of the three or four OOC channels, and we won't have to worry about ooc being dead. IF you don't like some one, drag them to the arena and Qdice if levels are to different, or hell just fuck it out. This is a game, this is not a mmorpg, where loot drops, there is no reason to have drama. NO reason. I honestly have stayed here and came back for years as Marren has for years because of friends, hell I haven't visited another channel in about 4 years.

[Leashen]

It would be nice if everyone respected each other, or at least could be civil. Unfortunately the internet has a tendency to amplify human nature in negative...and sometimes, though rarely, positive ways.
I've been coming into TLI for about 11 years. I met my husband in TLI. I keep coming back to TLI because it is a good game and has good people here. Life doesn't always let me play as much as I would like, but that's life.

In my years of roleplay I've been both kinds of player, the one that plans, and the one that went ic to see what I could find. Both work, but the plan at least worked faster sometimes, or with better success..Sometimes. Sometimes going ic without a plan gave a great story. Both ways have their merit and value to me. It's harder to plan without ooc. I will miss it if it doesn't come back. Ooc was one of the ways to know if someone wasn't busy already and thus available to continue or start a storyline.

As others have pointed out, it was good for event organization and information dissemination as well. Though TLI-Quest could be used for that, perhaps not as far reaching or effectively.

Lack of OOC will hurt newcomers the most. It's difficult when you get started. We all know this. You don't know where to go, what to read, which rooms to start in. There is so much information that it can be overwhelming. While they can get information from a guide, from the website, and from TLI-OPs, they won't get connections that way. Yes, they will get them slowly as they rp...but some people will feel easier about roleplaying if they can talk oocly with their partner before they get into the rp. It's the whole 'safeword' kind of idea. PM's can be used, but ooc is still a very good resource that will be missed in this kind of scenario. We don't have rapetags anymore, so setting up limits for someone who is new can sometimes be tricky.

I can see the viewpoints of those that feel there will be more roleplay without ooc, they might be right. I don't think it will lessen drama, sadly. I think it is more likely to make drama fester in offshoot rooms until things explode. Then again they explode now.

I do feel that some of us try to respect the feelings of others. Some of us are a bit shy, actually...hiding behind our little computers. We like to ask people in pm if they want to play because approaching them icly feels like forcing their attention...and we don't want to do that. Other times asking people in pm if they want to play is the only way to get time with them, because everytime they go ic, they have other people's attention. OOC was a way to know they were free.

This is just my opinion, as others have theirs.

[Devidial]

Marren, read your post and there were a couple points I had to remark on and you probably won't read this and thats fine thats entirely up to you. First I seem to recall a remark about how 'everyone was asking for this' let me start with I remember when I school being told by a teacher when a person holds out a statement to be true and they use words like everyone, everything, always and never these statements will almost always prove to be false since to use such all inclusive words can hardly ever be proven since more often than not there will be an exception (and yes I used some of those words myself but I did use justifying words such as almost.)

To suggest that everyone asked for this to happen is not only inaccurate but unfair. There are a good portion of the population that would prefer to handle their problems themselves and not have to involve outside sources such as the ops. Many people that have a high level of respect for the ops and the job that they do I would even wager while not able to say with absolute certainty those that lack this maturity to treat the ops with the dignity and respect they deserve are in the vast minority. In short I find it unreasonable to hold liable every player amid the game for the actions of a few.

As for people bad mouthing the ops while I would never advocate outright disrespect or belittling I would have to say this situation has frustrated a number of people. Frustration leads to stress and guess what pinned up stress leads to even more drama so allowing people to vent a little in the long run is going to save everyone trouble. Speaking from experience people need that sense if only momentarily that their voice is being heard and once its out and off their chest more often than not they feel better and what could of been a huge blowup is averted. That's kinda what happens when you have a community that is this close we get to feel comfortable around one another and feel safe expressing whats troubling us but then again some people might call that a good thing.

Now this is separate:

I have one last point to make and I'll make it brief, I mentioned in previous post that personally I feel intimidated by the ops and thats true and honestly thats what one should feel when regard an authority figure. I respect you all for what has to be one huge pain in the neck at times but people need more of that fear if there was more follow through with consequences I bet there wouldn't be half as many issues because people would see there's a real chance of getting your ass booted or banned. Make the consequences real not so many warnings and follow with real consequences.I saw someone suggest breaks for ops I think thats a fantastic idea I would say if you work three weeks in opiness you get a week that just for you to wind down and relax. That's just a rough schedule but you know vacation time for every op so we don't get ya'll reaching this breaking point. Also I would highly suggest don't sweat the small stuff if someone comes to you with a petty nothing of a problem tell them to work it out themselves hell maybe even recruit a few players to serve as mediators to help sort out these lil problems so ops aren't called on to waste their time and be put under stress. Well ok that wasn't as brief as I had hoped but there it is.

[Thria]

Two comments.
1:
"If this doesn't cure it in one month, it will close permanently."
So if closing OOC doesn't stop drama... What makes you think closing it perminantly would? Think you need to rethink this strategy.

[Thria]

So someone want to explain why my alternative OOC was removed from my post? If you're closing the official one, you should at least allow people to organize a new one, as you clearly stated we could do. Or is the idea to suppress communication?

[Chrystine Moonspell]

Thria, you can tell me and i will gladly post it on fb, we are kinda using it as a liason anyways. All the current rooms are listed there.

[crow]

Might as well throw my two copper in there.

Am I the only one who apparently just happens to never be online/paying attention when the drama is happening? I feel completely blindsided by all this. Whenever I'm in the ooc it's involving a friendly greeting, a bit of psuedo cuddle rp(like 1-4 posts, not entire scenes) and fun/perverted stores links, character brainstorming, having a laugh of some sort talking about how such and such would be so totally hilarious if it happened ic. And the occasional rules question, offer of rp/shop, announcement of event.

I'm really dissapointed that's apparently gone because of drama which I never see happening, I don't doubt that it does given what a strong reaction people are having to it but as far as I ever knew the ooc was just a friendly place for the community to hang out. Yes I realize that was not it's official purpose but it was nice, you get more familour with people and numerous times a bit of non-essential-ooc-stuf breeds enough familiarity to hop ic together later for me anyway.

Now I'm told it was apparently completely diseased, drama-whoring, rp-killing hive of scum and villianly so much so that it had to be taken behind the shed and I'm just left wondering.. Are we even talking about the same channel?

All I know is a part of this game that always made me feel welcome whenever I came online has vanished..

[Marren]

Devidial, when I wrote that, the "everyone asked for it" I was actually talking about my blowin' up, but I should have been more specific. Appologies.

[Thria]

I would like to apologize to L'aquera for my comment about suppressing our communication.

It has been pointed out to me by an op that my advertisement of an alternative OOC room can be classified under the rule against Piracy, and therefore I am in the wrong.

I apologize.