Player Input to Development

[Aramis]

As for the Magi, I've always just referred to it as Magian, but if you want to get a bit more fancy, try Kronese or Kronnan, reflecting their history and lore.

[Naomh]

Up next, being worked on by the Dev team...

Warrior Mage

If you have any input or questions on the class, especially suggestions and concerns on the class, please post below

NOTE: This thread here is primarily for the class itself, if you have suggestions or input on their spells, please refer to this thread: http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=153747#p153747

[DiasEesha]

Alright Warrior "mages" probably one of the most intense discussions that will be on here. So Ill try to keep my views as straight edged as possible. [jokes yeah yeah anyways]

First while I do understand that they are titled "warrior mages" I think that theres a couple of classes that could be used as a dual class with them aside mage...while this really isnt a particular point of importance it would support a bit more varied background for them. This more varied mindset may help encourage some more interest in what I think is one of our least selected classes. [Ie possibly cleric or shaman..personally I would see shaman a bit more logical out of that example.]

Second, both the advantage and disadvantage are fine though there certainly needs to be more clarification on the disadvantage if this condition does exist when does it kick in and what cost does it come with? Those two are very important questions, with this clarification there is likely going to be a need for tweaking the advantage. One that...I dont particularly see as all that effective to be frank. Yes init has worth but..not particularly one that makes a lasting presence [unlike every other class that comes to mind.] Perhaps there could be some sort of additional [spitballing here]

Weapons and armor seems pretty much on point though, [and certainly correct me if Im wrong] any class that has the ability to use magic and the classing to be able to use metal in general can do so if their int exceeds the restriction penalty so..perhaps the mithril only may not particularly fit.

[The Mercenary Abby]

... both the advantage and disadvantage are fine though there certainly needs to be more clarification on the disadvantage if this condition does exist when does it kick in and what cost does it come with?

The Warrior-Mage class tends to pull people in with its concept but pushes people away once they get to the mechanics. Excluding the fact that Warrior Mages only have a total of TWO spells they have access to from the Arcana Sphere (unless they decide to go with Warrior-Mage/Mage), I agree with Dias here that it really doesn't say on the site how different the stats would have to be before it supposedly affects the Warrior-Mage negatively or what that 'negative effect' even is.

So some suggestions would be something I''ve recalled hearing: the highest difference allowed between ant two stats is 10. Stats like 50 50 50 60 would be fine, but not 50 50 50 70 (Note that this only concerns STR, INT, AGI, RES). I've always thought that was fine and not too difficult to do, but players will have to deal with the fact that their highest rolls will never be close to someone else of the same level but of a different class (assuming they don't just focus points on STA, LIF, or SPL).

Now as for what kind of negative effects that could happen, perhaps maybe one of these?

1. All actions that require stamina will be doubled and characters will only be able to gain half stamina from !evade rolls.
2. Characters will suffer a penalty of 10% for all Attack and Defense rolls.
3. At the end of every round will require a roll of 1d5 beforehand. The result is damage to Life AND/OR Stamina.
4. ICly, the character would be suffering from headaches and maybe feel like magic is burning them from the inside?

Now as I was saying before: it is not difficult for players to make sure their characters' stats are equal, but perhaps we can add something else to this: what if a character with 50 50 50 30 stats uses an enchanted item that pushes their stats to 50 50 50 40?

If we say that could work around the disadvantage, that does encourage characters to get said enchantments. BUT! It can be a double-edged sword: if the said item was removed, then that means the negative penalties will come into play again. Warrior-Mages would have to be very cautious, especially since stat enchantments can only be done on certain item types.

And enemies could target these items.

Another would be like spells from the Divine Sphere that can attack a character's stat. Those can also potentially provoke the negative penalties, so those are spells that Warrior-Mages should be careful for.

Now for the advantage:

Those two are very important questions, with this clarification there is likely going to be a need for tweaking the advantage. One that...I don't particularly see as all that effective, to be frank. Yes init has worth but..not particularly one that makes a lasting presence [unlike every other class that comes to mind.] Perhaps there could be some sort of additional [spitballing here]

The initiative is not a bad advantage and the fact that Warrior-Mages can summon their weapons at will is a huge plus in my opinion. But perhaps some extra mechanics could make the class more appealing?

Let's say the highest difference allowed between two stats is 10. Perhaps if characters can keep that difference to, say, 5 or 0, then they get bonus modifiers to their attack/defense equal to the number of times the Warrior-Mage class is taken?

Because as it is, there is little point to getting beyond Warrior-Magex2 apart from the class stat bonuses. It would make players think about how they should advance their character, I would think...

Hope all that made sense!

[The Mercenary Abby]

<•Nasim>
I always thought it would be neat if a WarMage could literally channel magic through their weapons.
like... add a weapon modifiers to a spell attack, or spell damage modifiers to phyatks or...
•Nasim shrugs

<•Allivia>
the later might be especially interesting given the price of thos eenchantments
would be a nice class benefit

<•Abby`>
That WOULD be neat, actually... Casting Touch Spells through their weapons
I mean, their stats aren't high so having those kinds of bonuses would balance things out?

So another idea would be surrounding the concept that Warrior-Mages are equally good with their weapons AND their magic. Perhaps an interest RP Fluff advantage for them could be "Warrior Mages can cast Close-Ranged spells through their Melee Weapons"?

Of course, the only issue here is that they would either have had to get those spells BEFORE turning Warrior-Mage or if they keep their Mage class.

Mechanic-wise, it'd be something like what Nasim said: casting Close Ranged Spells through Melee Weapons will enable the Warrior-Mage to add the number of slots for their spells with their weapon's Attack Modifier. However, stamina cost is potentially high: casting a standard 15-slot Close Ranged Spell through a weapon would cost 17 Stamina (standard spell cost + standard attack stamina cost).

Another potential idea would be PERHAPS Warrior-Mages can utilize enchanted weapons better than other classes? For example, a standard Mage or Elemental Mage wielding a sword with 5 slots of Fire Bolt enchanted into it will grant a bonus of +1 to Damage rolls.

But Warrior-Mages are more intuned with the magic in their weapons and therefore they could provoke the 25% Damage Bonus against an Elemental Mage of an opposing element? For example: wielding a Fire Bolt-enchanted sword against an Ice Mage would deal !damage # # +damagebonus @125%.

The only one safe from this would be Air Mages since we do not have any Earth-element spells that can be enchanted into weapons.

It might be overpowered so perhaps maybe limiting it to one use per battle or something could balance it out?

[miyuka]

Hai folks, your friendly neighborhood spi- uhh, I mean Your head of Development (at least the mechanical side of things) and as already stated by my lovely right hand gal, Naomh, we wanna hear your thoughts on the matter, but let me be more specific. I'm not looking for your own personal writeups and the like. I want to know what you like about the class, what you dislike about the class, and I do not want this to be a debate or a place to just air all manner of grievances. You don't need to be a math wiz or super heavy into the mechanics of the game to reply. Also this is just specifically about the class. The spell sphere (as far ass adding or subtracting spells) will be done at another time.

[Zeddular]

First off, I just want to state that I -adore- the concept of the Warrior Mage. Harkening back to even the days of AD&D I've always loved the concept of the Fighter Mage. Not quite as physically adept as a true Warrior, not quite able to reach the upper echelons of arcane ability but a beautifully fun blend of -both- with it's own limitations. The main thing holding back the Warrior Mage right now in my opinion is it's lack of Class Identity.

What is Class Identity? Look at a Fire Mage. You've got a whole school of fire mage from the iconic Fireball to all sorts of lovely other spells to pick. Look at a Necromancer, look at almost any other well define, well thought of class in the game and you can instantly find inspiration for amazing RP builds and fun ideas and even fun bits of back ground lore.

Now look at the Warrior Mage. You have access to only what a normal mage already gets access too and not even all of that. (That part actually makes sense. Not quite as skilled as a true Warrior, not quite as skilled as a powerful Master of the Arcane, remember?) But then The War Mage currently has I think two(?) spells of their own. Nothing devoted to them. They need their own spells that help solidify and identify who and what this class is and what is supposed to represent. A Warrior Mage is a singularly devoted and methodical individual. One who has dedicated time to learning martial prowess and blending that with his studies of the arcane mastery.

Lets see spells that emphasize that notion, lore that expands on the concept of the Cosmic Balance and War Mages own struggle to achieve that inner balance in himself and with the world around him and how that lends him to create his own blend of Physical/Arcane mastery. That's all that really needs to be done, I think. The class, what is there is now is -good-. It just needs to be expanded upon and added to so that the War Mage feels like it is a part of the beautiful history of this fantasy world we all love and provides players with fun and interesting choices in new spells and abilities as they grow in level and power.

That's my two cents.

Just a quick edit to add that I have my own thread in Spells and Magic detailing my thoughts and potential spell additions/expanded lore ideas over in spells and magic for anyone that wants further reading. http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=23022

[Zeddular]

I'd also like to add that I think on the whole the War Mage is a well designed class. The idea of the 'Cosmic Balance' and the struggle of the War Mage to find that Balance in himself and maintain it is a good foundation for character building and adding to your character. The only things I can think of, honestly, which have been mentioned to add is that I feel the drawback could be better explained.

How closely must the stats be kept equal, what is the penalty if it goes to far beyond that mark and in that same nature I feel the bonuses that the War Mage as class advantages are in a good spot. The Init bonus is handy and being able to instantly summon the bonded weapon is a really wonderful move that is useful combat wise and in a thousand ways RP wise with points for flair and style.

Lastly I'd just like to thank the Dev team for their hard work and for even considering any spell suggestions or other tweaks that have been offered by myself and the community.

[Rei-Kai]

Hai folks, your friendly neighborhood spi- uhh, I mean Your head of Development (at least the mechanical side of things) and as already stated by my lovely right hand gal, Naomh, we wanna hear your thoughts on the matter, but let me be more specific. I'm not looking for your own personal writeups and the like. I want to know what you like about the class, what you dislike about the class, and I do not want this to be a debate or a place to just air all manner of grievances. You don't need to be a math wiz or super heavy into the mechanics of the game to reply. Also this is just specifically about the class. The spell sphere (as far ass adding or subtracting spells) will be done at another time.

I am going to argue against the concept of 'airing grievances', since just explaining why we don't like something can be seen as "airing a grievance". Without giving explanations on any point it would just be;
"I like #A" or "I don't like #B" with no context. I'll try not to go into a rant and as I've expressed in the ooc before, my previous thoughts/suggestions for fixing/replacing the class are already on the forums;
http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=16085, http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19201, and http://belariath.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19747. So there, that's all available for staff and players to go over at their leisure. Moving on.

What I like: The Concept. The idea class that puts effort into combining physical ability with arcane knowledge and ability is a fun idea and you're basically every Shonen protagonist in anime.

What I don't like: The Implementation. There really isn't anything about the class that makes it feel like it is combining those two aspects when it applies to combat or even out of combat. Spells need to be cast the same as before and outside of battle there is nothing unique about them that would allow anyone to tell the difference between a Warrior-Mage and just another melee class. Not even their armor selection would really suggest that.

What I like: The restriction to or primary use of Mithril equipment. Given that Mithril is a more magical material and is primarily applied to physical objects, it fits well with the concept of the Warrior-Mage that balances and utilizes both aspects of physical ability and magical might.

What I don't like: Again, the implementation of this. There is nothing about the current set of abilities that Warrior-Mages have that would display them using mithril equipment any differently than any other class and aside from Mithril Gauntlets permitting WaM's to cast spells, there are no benefits for sticking with mithril equipment.

What I like: I do like the idea of limiting them down to C-rank equipment as it shows superior physical proficiency over a mage, but lesser proficiency next to a Warrior or Knight. Pointing more towards that balance between physical combat and magical aptitude.

What I don't like: The restriction to single-handed weapons and the prohibition on shields. WaM's in general are already being limited to the strength of equipment they have access to. Further restrictions only hurt them without reason and without any other benefits being added to the class to help balance the issue.

What I like: I do like the stat distribution when taking the class as it seems to keep in mind what aspects of the WaM they lean towards.

What I don't like: The severe limitation on stat placement as a whole. Actually fully restriction where stat points can be allocated by penalizing the player if the value of one main stat (Str, Int, Agi or Res) is over 10 points above the other three stats completely neuters the class against any other combat class that has no such restriction and can stat-stack freely without any kind of penalty or restriction. On top of that, if the penalty comes into play, then it can't be remedied until the player either achieves another level to redistribute stat points, has a Reset to fix the issue, or spends large sums of in-game currency on Stat Enchantments to balance the issue. As failing to do so results in a semi-permanent stat loss that can only be fixed once that issue is resolved.

Lastly, I don't like how WaM is limited to base-level Arcana spells. Arcana spell requirements go up for stronger spells depending on how many times Mage is selected. So the strongest spells can only be used by pure Mages who have gone up to Magex7. With the concept of the Warrior-Mage being that they balance physical ability with magical knowledge, restricting them solely to just the beginner spells does not reflect their ideology or concept. Since it would suggest that after they learned the beginner spells that they just stopped learning anything else. When it should be that they can learn up to Magex4 or Magex5 before their inherent ability caps due to their mental divide balancing physical skill with magic.

[Zeddular]

I've spent some more time thinking this over and I think that as I alluded in my earlier post one of the Warrior Mage's real drawback is the lack of definition on his benefits and limitations.

Ideally, what I would like to see done, and what I think would help balance Warrior mages is that they have two attributes that they must maintain a balance between. I believe allowing a choice of either Strength and Intellect, or Agility and Intellect (allowing the choice would allow Warrior Mages the freedom of choosing a bound weapon and preferred combat style, I.E. a longsword for melee focus, a bow for ranged focus) and again, ideally you would still want to balance you stats to a degree (to keep being able to be good at say close physical and ranged magic attacks or so forth but not feel quite as restricted in stat placement) would reflect that nicely, the balance between the body and the mind. These two attributes would have to always be balanced allowing for a more limited (than other classes) stat point pool to distribute between their other stats as they choose, but also boosting the Warrior Mage a bit and allowing more freedom to distribute your remaining points than you have presently. If this was done I believe it would provide meaningful choice as well as nicely balancing the class as a whole.

Lastly, I think that the penalty needs be better defined. I think it could be something as simple as (once we have a comprehensive list of unique Warrior Mage spells for each rank you can attain Warrior Mage) that failing to keep your two primary attributes balanced would deny you the use of your Warrior Mage spells. If you mind and body falls out of balance, if you stop respecting the balance, you lose access to your abilities.

Simple, direct, meaningful choices and penalties that would make the class fun and ideally (I believe) be easy to implement.

[Joshua_Jericho]

Maybe a total flyer - but could we tweak the 'balance' requirement to be keeping the total of the two Magical Stats (INT + RES) within ten of the total of the two Physical stats (STR + AGI)? That might allow a little more freedom for meaningful stat choices.

[Naomh]

Thank you all for your inputs on the Warrior Mage class. We assure you we're still working on it, and if people still have input to give on the class such is still welcome, but we are also opening up this thread for a second subject:

Skills

We're looking for general input on skills as a whole. Not suggestions nor recommendations for specific skills to add or remove.

How do you think the skill system works? Does it add anything of interest? Do you feel more could be done with it? Is it a system worth keeping? How about the ranked/unranked system? Etc... etc...

[CallieO]

I think we need a universal place where we can see all three skills that make people eligible for pay raises at any particular job. I don't know what skills to improve upon for some of the jobs that I have.

[Hokima Tesh-Rimon]

I like the skills, but unranked seems kinda like a waste. Yes, they add things that you can do with your character, but most people go for the skills that pay money first and then fill out the various unranked skills. It also means that a level 1 character can't really do anything more than walk, talk, and chew bubble gum. Besides that, class restrictions on certain skills would help people choose non-combat classes. As it currently stands, there is very little benefit for somebody to be a non-combat class, as combat classes have access to most of the crafting skills. It would also make sense to tie skills together or cap how many master ranked skills you can have. Sure, that would cause a lot of people to have to rework skills, or even impact most people's pay, but in RL how many things are people actually Master's of? It takes time and considerable effort. I'm guilty of having a lot of master skills on Hokima, and I know I would have to rework it, but I don't see that as a problem.

Skills in this game are just ways for your character to get paid, and beyond that add very little. Crafting doesn't really matter, as unless you work for a shop you can't do much with it. Nothing that you freelance make can be enchanted. Even if you have the skills, you can't make your own weapons armor, furniture, or anything like that. I would like to see a way for the crafting to actually mean something because people can be Master Jewelers, and unable to make their own collars for a slave.

The combat-related skills add some fluff, but not much in my opinion. They are again, just a way for people to get paid more at guard or soldier related jobs. As it's not often that people do various scouting or soldier related activities. We don't have house intrigue or wars very often, so those skills are not used.

[Gabriel Storm-Dancer]

I too like a skill system, but they don't seem to have any value in an RP perspective. Well, none perhaps other than getting you more money on your monthly paycheck (which I believe is a good thing). But...there needs to be some actual utilization or application. To piggyback of Hokima...crafting skills really are of little value since all you can do is Freelance. This puts a damper on the whole system. Sure, you might for a Noble as the Forgemaster or something...but what value does that generate?

Again to go off Hokima...the scouting, heraldry, forgery...those sort of skills seem for naught. There is no political intrigue. No backroom deals made between Nobles or persons of means. No wargames, spying, skirmishes, or otherwise internal politics to make those skills useful at all. Which is a shame, really.

Questing also produces little use for skills. It never matters who has the highest scouting rank, or who can read a map, or who knows how to navigate the wilds of an untamed land. Everyone just sort of...does. So why even bother? Other than to fatten up that paycheck at the end of the month.

Do you feel more could be done with it?

Absolutely.

Is it a system worth keeping?

Yes, with some work done to make it better and more meaningful.

How about the ranked/unranked system?

Valid. But again, needs some bolstering.