Concubines

[Elayne]

To my mind, a concubine should be a contract status between the concubine and her master, a private agreement that one citizen intends to submit to another in the bedroom and/or socially.

I think a concubine might be able to own a slave (though obviously having another concubine would be silly). But there's nothing to say someone's concubine or mistress wouldn't have a servant/slave, provided the pay the same upkeeps.

I agree that all concubines should be registered by the ISA, like any registered contract has to be filed with the courts. But I think it makes logical sense that the concubine has a method of ending the contract just like her master does, possibly by paying a penalty or refunding the money to make sure it isn't done frivolously.

Personally, I don't think concubines should get a discount for registration, since that provides an incentive for people to pay less to be 'less slavey', which is a double benefit. I think a concubine's registration should be at least the same 100 mhl, if not more.

I also don't know if it's even necessary to have a concubine marked in a channel tag, since it's entirely possible that a player might not immediately realize that the person he's talking to is someone's concubine unless told so. It might be better just to have the tag in Desdaemona's !desc, but not to have a channel name, since that creates confusion anyways.

Peronally, I think that the only way a slave should be able to move up to a concubine is if the slave's owner releases her, then reacquires IC/OOC consent and registers her as a concubine.

[One]

the only questions i have to add here are:

will concubines be able to own property, ie: their own land, houses, or beasts?
will concubine's money be his or her own, or will it pass along to her owner, as with a slave?

i've given thought to what a concubine might wear to designate herself in channel. because i feel as though a lot of apostrophes, ||'s and things might get messy along with our dashes and brackets, i suggest maybe -doubling- the slave brackets. like:

Lene{{C-IP}}

that way, a person with an already existing slave tag can still use his or her tag .. there is a visual difference between slaves and concubines, including the 'C,' and it's much less cosmetically messy for the channel. also, in past experience, Desdaemona has trouble recognizing [] the flat brackets. could also eliminate the 'c' altogether and just double bracket.

i know that some folks still feel a concubine shouldn't 'wear' a tag at all, but i feel as though it will reduce confusion and add a satisfaction factor to happy owner/lover if we allowed it.

[Stormbringer]

That Concubines have the OOC freedom to take whatever employment position they would like and are qualified for. But, with the understanding that certain higher positions come with the expectation of loyalty to that position and represented authority, as in a Commander of the Imperial Guard who happens to be a Concubine would understand that she has an expectation of loyalty to the Empire and Guard, and not just her owner.

Good point. I think it falls on the owner more though. In order for a concubine to take any job apart from a menial one the owner would have to agree that his concubine's first loyalty was to the empire during working hours. That way if he screws around with it later he becomes, effectively, a traitor and faces the consequences. Of course the concubine would also know that she could create some serious problems for her owner if she felt so inclined, so anything that happened to him would happen to her too. Could make for some interesting roleplay?

Concerning the one month period during which the switch to concubine can be made without penalty, will that time include or be extended to after the new slave public behavior rules are decided? gwyn believes, from talking to O/others, that the new slave rules will have a great part in players' decisions as to whether to make that switch for many of their characters. it will cause less chaos and shuffling around if all the information is presented before that time period expires, and likely an easier transition with fewer frustrated players.

I'm easy either way. I can finalise concubine and then get the slave review finished before concubine comes into play. Or there can be a new or extended grace period for slaves to decide if they like the new setup. I just wouldn't want to see slave review hurried through because it is still a fundamental of the game and needs careful planning.

I move for a 50mhl registration and 5mhl upkeep for 'tax' purposes. They are still considered property to a degree and there is Imperial Documentation held and upkept ICly about such. Half price and half upkeep in comparison to slave.

There seems to be general support for this so far and the concubine can always pass money to her owner if it makes life difficult for him.

Though it might be easier to just split the difference and pay concubines a basic 10 or 15 / month instead of the usual 20?

I would not use a hyphen as suggested due to it being for employees declaring their work. I personally, even though it has meaning in other irc mediums... use the [] bracket to determine concubines for OOC flagging purposes.

I don't really see support for either the square brackets (because of those coming from other channels) or a variation on the { } either. Hyphen is used in shop status so I think we need a different answer.

I see no reason for this to be muddy. If a person is a slave and wants to be changed to a concubine OR vice versa, then it needs not be an issue. As long as the Owner and slave in questions are both present, a mere subbing of 50mhl can be done for the changing of from types of property and a quick change over in database. A flat 50mhl fee for 'paperwork processing fees'. Any transference of title types must have both ICly at the same time to change it.

No particular problem with that in my mind unless there's any general feeling there should be a waiting period.

A visitation to the southern exploration could be utilized for this purpose.

It does have a certain elegance to think of it as being brought back as a new idea from those exploring the southern deserts coming into contact with it. My own idea was a Lysistrata style revolt amongst slaves but either way I would pass that aspect to the quests group to consider and implement.

As for collar wearing, I think theres a fair few non slaves walking around with collars/chokers etc, so why not concubines? I mean they can be branded like cattle but not wear a collar?

This isn't a major thing for me but I would want some way in which a character IC can see that another character is either slave, concubine or free without having to consult OOC knowledge or ask every time. Apart from the convenience to players there is an imperial aspect where, if no such distinction exists, a slave could claim to be a concubine to gain extra freedom to attack a free person for example. Whilst that can make for roleplay opportunities, it isn't something that is likely to be overlooked by the empire so there would be some law governing collar styles. If there is agreement here on specific features of a collar that make such an identification then I'm happy enough.

I can see this as more of a IC thing between the slave and the owner. Once the owner decided they wish to change then they would need to post their OOC consent and so would the slave char. They would wait one week then come in pay the fee and the slave collar would be removed and paper work filled out making them a Concubine. This of course would go into effect after the first month. However I think there should be a limit of one switch per slave char per owner. Once switched it should be something they can not switch again with the same owner. If there isnt a limit set, then I can see some playing musical collars.

I can't see any major problems with this, though perhaps if the characters wanted to make the switch back because it wasn't working, they could be either required to decollar first or pay a larger fee as a penalty.

will concubines be able to own property, ie: their own land, houses, or beasts?
will concubine's money be his or her own, or will it pass along to her owner, as with a slave?

Something I'm undecided on too. Of course in OOC terms a slave does retain ownership of property and makes a choice about where the money goes. I think I'm most inclined to allow a concubine to retain title to her own property IC and anything beyond that is between her and her owner.

[Avarwraith]

Speaking as an REB worker, it's REB policy to sell to anyone, slave or free person alike. It's even on the site listed under the REB - Information page. So I can't see why Concubines wouldn't be allowed to own property when a slave is already allowed that freedom.

We are an equal opportunity Real Estate Brokerage:

* We sell to anyone with the mehrials!
* You're a free person; we don't care!
* You're a slave; we don't care!
* You're a nice person; we don't care!
* You're a nasty bastard; we don't care!
* You don't make your mortgage payment; We Care!!!

[Kerianna]

I've been trying to think up some ideas for the marking...it's hard, without going to unicode characters that require alt-codes to enter (which would be possible, but a real pain without scripts to change nick).

What about normal parentheses? Or double parentheses? Here's a few things I've come up with not using [] or {}:

Concubine(Tag)
Concubine((Tag))
Concubine-(Tag)-
Concubine(-Tag-)
Concubine-(-Tag-)-
Concubine(=Tag=)
Concubine=(=Tag=)=

Not sure that any has great appeal, but it helps to see them written out I think.


As far as the IC differentiation in collars, the easiest would be to have different ISA marks on them. The collars already have some sort of mark that contains the owner's initials, so a different kind of mark with said initials would be easy enough (one in an oval, the other in a diamond, or whatever). Barring that, you could go to a sort of two-tone thing (one color in the middle with another on top and bottom) or something like that, but that would severely restrict people's design creativity. The different sort of mark would be the best, I think (so no mark is free person wearing it for fashion, mark type A is slave, and mark type B is concubine).

[Elthorion]

I support the idea of concubines, I'm not too concerned about the details, most of what storm has put forth seems logical enough.

As far as marking, adding double parens, or doubles and a character (=,-,¥) would, in my opinion, make the nicks too long and bulky.

There are definite reasons why {} and [] dont work. And the hyphen is used by workers.

What about '*'. For example: Concubine*owner tag*

The asterisk isn't being used for anything official, as far as i know. It is different enough from the brackets to not get confused at a glance. And, at least in an english/american keyboard, its just Shift+8.

[Istoaj]

That was why I suggested the | instead of {,[, or (. It is a little cleaner, and makes it somewhat official, and as far as I know, isn't used as any 'official' markings.

EX: Twelic|Chris|.

I checked in Nickserv today, and it is an allowable set of nick parameters.

[Avarwraith]

well people keep suggesting name*owner* but the * marks don't work for mIRC in a nick. The best option, from what i could see, is the one Istoaj put forward, if any is used at all.

Since the character would basically be a free person as far as most are concerned (or a second class citizen) I, personally, don't see it being a big deal to leave them without identifiers on the nick. Anyone doing a !desc is gonna see their owner at first glance, and it may cut down on people using accidental ooc knowledge (since concubine markings seem to be leaning towards less obvious non collar options.

[Tawny]

This isn't a major thing for me but I would want some way in which a character IC can see that another character is either slave, concubine or free without having to consult OOC knowledge or ask every time. Apart from the convenience to players there is an imperial aspect where, if no such distinction exists, a slave could claim to be a concubine to gain extra freedom to attack a free person for example. Whilst that can make for roleplay opportunities, it isn't something that is likely to be overlooked by the empire so there would be some law governing collar styles. If there is agreement here on specific features of a collar that make such an identification then I'm happy enough.

Question... does the tag need to have the owner Identified since there really isnt going to be any rules or laws upon a Concubine. If not then maybe a simply thing such as ...Nick^C^ would work. It shows the char is a concubine, Cant be mistaken for a slave collar, and leaves the IC play as to finding out whom the Concubine belongs too IC.

I'm easy either way. I can finalise concubine and then get the slave review finished before concubine comes into play. Or there can be a new or extended grace period for slaves to decide if they like the new setup. I just wouldn't want to see slave review hurried through because it is still a fundamental of the game and needs careful planning.

If there is no real need to bring concubines into play right away I suggest waiting and introducing the concubine and the new rules reguarding slaves actions in public together. It would make a smoother introduction and gives everyone one month to look over the new rules and decide if that is something they wish to continue as. I agree the new rules are not something can should be rushed into and new to be concerned carefully. Tho jumping from slave to concubine just to avoid new rules isnt the answer either. A concubine isnt a freer slave. It is a new class altogether. That is one thing that does worry me abit. That some will simply switch so they are freer under the rules of concubine and the owner has to pay less in fee's and registeration. Maybe there needs to be some way for the IG and ISA to insure that a concubine is infact a concubine and not just a slave and owner trying to dodge fees and rules. Just a thought that has come to mind.

[Sakkara]

Concubines wear leather collars

Slaves wear metal collars.

Hows that?

[One]

i just want to add that i would get SO EXCITED about the addition of some fantasy ancient persia-type RP. love it, love it love it.

[Kerianna]

Concubines wear leather collars

Slaves wear metal collars.

Hows that?

That's possible, but just like with the different sort of coloration, it would restrict design creativity for both slaves and concubines (or rather their owners). I still think the best way is to just have the ISA mark be different on them. We don't even need to say what the mark is, specifically, only that it's different than the one for slaves.

[gwyneth{StWi}]

Tho jumping from slave to concubine just to avoid new rules isnt the answer either. A concubine isnt a freer slave. It is a new class altogether. That is one thing that does worry me abit. That some will simply switch so they are freer under the rules of concubine and the owner has to pay less in fee's and registeration. Maybe there needs to be some way for the IG and ISA to insure that a concubine is infact a concubine and not just a slave and owner trying to dodge fees and rules. Just a thought that has come to mind.

Actually gwyn thought that *was* the purpose of the free time given for the change, some slaves will stay slaves, but some players may not choose to stay within those more strict rules for one reason or another. Some current slaves will be more suited to concubinage, and that free time was to give them time to change rather than having to follow the new slave rules, or was gwyn wrong in that thought?

[Dalahlaleeah]

Like gwyn, I am a little confused on Tawny's post. If a slave and Master come in to change from slave to concubine during that 30 day time period - then it is because they have discussed it and decided that one or the other or both do not want to continue with the slave as a slave. I fail to see why there is a worry about it because obviously, it means that one or both do not want to rp the harsher aspects of slavery. I seriously doubt someone who -wants- to play the harsh aspect of a slave's life and the Master/Mistress of that slave - would change the collar to save 5 mhl a month.

[Stormbringer]

Some will no doubt realise that they can play as either slave or concubine in exactly the same way *within* the private relationship between themselves and their owner character. Some will understand that they can continue to play in exactly the same way as they have *always* played the relationship between the two characters. The differences are weighted towards how the slave or concubine is expected to behave in public, in how others regard their character based upon the type of ownership involved, and not upon what happens inside the relationship.

I have said this numerous times but I still hear people spreading stories that oppose that statement, either from an inability to read English or because they want to muddy the waters for those who are undecided.

With that in mind, those who wish to experience the full weight of a collar in every aspect of their lives will always choose slavery. It isn't the easiest of paths, so those who wish to experience various degrees of dominance and submission in a relationship whilst still having extra freedom in their other activities may choose concubine instead.

A character who wishes to play out having been captured and forcibly put into a collar will have to choose slave. Playing such a character as a concubine requires them to create some roleplay in which they are tricked or manipulated into that position.

An owner may feel that his public perception will gain higher regard if he is seen to own slaves instead of concubines. Holding prejudices about the subject, he may look down upon concubine owners as being manipulated into providing some girl with an easy life in return for sex. Other owners may feel that concubinage represents a token of feeling between two characters better expressed in that way than through bonding.

Other couples will have other reasons to make their choice and for some, 5Mhl a month may be all the justification they need to choose one path over another. That's up to them. It could be seen as rather shallow against the opportunities to be gained in roleplaying but the aim of this game has always been to provide the widest set of opportunities for individual playing decisions within a specific environmental envelope.